SOUTHARD) to urge the propriety of raising an additional force to defend us against traitors. We stand no more in need of it now than we did before for that purpose. The probability is, that the late conspiracy has totally subsided. I understood the gentleman from Kentucky to call upon us to defend our frontier against the Indians. Is it not a fact that the first force we employed was to prevent transgressions of our people on the Indians, and not to repel their transgressions on us? I think it was so. H. OF R. that way by a refusal again to consider it. Instead of putting it to sleep side-way, as was now rather the fashion, he hoped it would be decided on principle; that they would go on with it and decide on its merits. As to the principle of the bill he could on one side easily perceive the necessity for the additional force contemplated to be raised, and on the other could not see any possible danger to arise from it. In the Atlantic States, said he, we do not, to be sure, want an augmentation of the Peace Establishment. The country being pretty fully inhabited possesses in tleman suppose that on our frontiers, so defenceless and exposed, the militia would be competent for defence? Assuredly not. They ought to have a force adequate, if not to prevent, at least to repel invasion when it comes. The situation of the country demands it-our duty demands it. The people on the frontier have in themselves the means of protection from the savages; and though we may regain the country after it is overrun, in doing so you will have to march over the bodies of your citizens whom you have left defenceless, who have approached you with supplications, but in vain. I will not take upon myself responsibility of this kind. This Government owes protection to every individual, however mean or abject his condition; and whereever every individual is protected, the whole community is secured. I wish particularly, from the alarms in the Western country, not only to establish a force which shall be sufficient to repel internal as well as external violation, but to remove from that country all cause of national discontent-to show them that we are as much alive and sensible to their interests as to our own-that we consider the United States as one great political body, every part of which it is our duty to protect. This is the true policy of the Government, and will leave to conspirators little hope of succeeding in attempts to corrupt your citizens. If you act otherwise you open a door to the wiles of conspirators. In every point of view, therefore, an augmentation of the standing military force of the country is necessary. I am as hostile to a standing army as any gentleman; but I do not call every little augmentation the erection of a standing army. There would be but little fear of our being overcome by even ten thousand men; there is no evil to apprehend from augmentation. Independent of these considerations of immediate danger, we ought not to adhere too closely at this time to the policy of not augmenting our Military Peace Establishment. This is not an age of the world in which pacific measures are to be indulged. If in other ages it happened that liberty has been overset by corrupting the military force, we do know that in the age in which we live power and might sway the nations of the universe. We know that no nation is secure except it be strong, nor strong except it be in a situation to exercise its power. However pleasing it be to indulge in pacific maxims, the truth is, we must be powerful and in a situation to exercise our power, or we are not secure. No Mr. G. W. CAMPBELL thought this debate had taken rather a curious course, for they were dis-itself a power to repel assault. But would any gencussing a war instead of a peace measure. The bill under consideration proposed a Military Peace Establishment, and every gentleman who had spoken had gone into a discussion of a war establishment. Nothing could more forcibly show the propriety of setting aside the peace establishment until the war establishment was decided on. For myself, said he, I really cannot think it important for gentlemen to come here and abuse our state of defence on the one side or eulogise it on the other. Their assertions have no effect; and it is of much more importance to attend to the subject now before the House. If war be apprehended, it is more important to authorize the raising of such a number of men as may be necessary in case of rupture, before we determine what shall be done in peace. I do not agree with the gentleman from Virginia, (Mr. EPPES.) I think if we have war that we we must have an addition to our military force; and that we ought to authorize the raising an army at this time. Gentlemen tell us of arming the militia; it is little more than a phantom at this time; and with respect to the idea of giving the people protection by giving them arms, it is still more futile. There are very few effective men in the Western country who have not arms. They have arms, and which they can manage much better than any arms the United States can give them. When it it possible to get arms, I shall have no objection to place them in the hands of the militia. But to talk of arming the militia when we are talking of raising a military force is irrelevant. I think the Committee should rise, as this appears to be intended as an increase of the peace establishment, and take up a measure calculated to prepare for war; and therefore I wish the peace establishment to lie on the table, and immediately to take up the bill to raise a provisional army. If we have war, the troops proposed by that bill can be raised; if we have peace it will be time enough then to determine for or against an addition to the peace establishment. Let us examine the subject as it presents itself: when at peace, we may adopt peace measures. These are my impressions; and I hope, therefore, the Committee will rise, and for this a great reason is the very turn which this discussion has taken. Mr. GARDENIER hoped the Committee would not rise. Reasons had been given by one side of the question in favor of the rising of the Committee that the bill might not be put to sleep in 10th Con. 1st Sess.-52 H. OF R. Military Establishment. FEBRUARY, 1808. militia will answer for garrison duty? I would apply to any man of them who ever shouldered a musket or wielded a sword, and he would tell me that for garrison duty they are peculiarly unfit, because they peculiarly abhor service on the frontiers, taking care of stores, &c., which requires an exercise of constant, regular, and persevering patience, and incessant attention. It is, of all modes cial to the community, and dissatisfactory to the people-at least, such is the opinion I have been led to form. As respects arms at fixed stations, you certainly want some person to be responsible for them; and certainly as respects important points, which are the keys of the country, you want some men there. Need the House be informed of the importance of those positions which command great portions of the country, whether maritime or territorial? Need any one be informed of the importance of such a post as Michillimackinac ? Need any one be told of the importance of New Orleans, so exposed to the attack of any foreign Power? Need any gentleman be told, that whoever seizes the key, will not have much difficulty in opening the trunk? There, a constant vigilance is required. I feel therefore willing, because I deem it perfectly proper as it respects garrison duty in time of peace, to raise a sufficient number of men for the purpose of keeping guard of magazines, &c. I am perfectly willing to vote for them, because I believe them cheaper, better, safer. But I am not able to ascertain, with convenience, what should be the number. And as it respects the present bill, I have not information to enable me to say whether this bill ought to pass, and no discussion which can take place in this House will enable me to decide. I find that by the bill provision is made for a battalion of cavalry. The annual expense for each private would be about four or five hundred dollars, making for the whole battalion an additional annual expense of from one hundred and twenty to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars. According to my present view, if merely for the purposes of peace, I cannot see the necessity for cavalry, though it may be necessary. The question is not now whether this number of men shall be raised, but whether of this specific description. As I do not perceive the necessity for these, I should wish for some information as respects the service which may be expected of them. I am, therefore, in favor of the Committee's rising; for, whatever may be our zeal as respects the providing means of defence, zeal alone will not do. There must be something like conduct, capacity, and intelligence, as well as zeal, patriotism, and imagination. thing else can secure us. In every measure, therefore, which has for its object this security I shall readily concur. I am not conversant in detailthat I will leave to others. It is necessary at this time to throw off our pacific, inoffensive, and philosophic character, and assume one more commanding, which if not by justice, yet by the fears which it inspires may be preserved. On the one hand I think gentlemen wrong who oppose stand-of garrisoning posts, the most wasteful, prejudiing force in every shape, and on the other I think those wrong who oppose the militia. Both may be employed and both to good purpose, but we should always have in view the peculiar circumstances of the country. It is not enough to be talking about the insult on the Chesapeake or to be dealing out anathemas against the British nation. This may produce a rage throughout the nation, though not that feeling which is necessary for the protection of the country. It is idle policy to listen to the trifling injury which we might receive from a standing force when the public good requires it. We should therefore not only talk but act, that, before the moment arrives in which we must meet the calamities of war, we may be prepared for it as much as in our power. If we raise this force the expense will be but little for tranquillity, and which we can easily pay if exempt from the burdens attendant on a state of war; if we do not increase our present force, the lives of our citizens which may be lost in consequence of the omission cannot be regained. The maxim will not do that justice may rely on the justice of others. We are just to others, but others are not so to us. Power only can insure justice. On the same principle that I advocated fortifications on our seashore, I would go all lengths for raising force for protection of the Western country. My only objection to the bill is, that the amount of force to be raised is not double what the bill provides. Mr. DANA said, perhaps it might be an expedient course for gentlemen always to vote against measures which were sometimes unpopular. He thought he had heard of a person who always voted against the levying of taxes and against the grants of money. It is a safe course of proceeding, said Mr. D., because, if a tax is popular, he will be exempt from reproach; if unpopular, nobody can find fault with him for it. I cannot boast, as the gentleman from Virginia, that I have always voted against regular troops-that I have always voted them down-and certainly I have not so much confidence in my own wisdom and foresight as to pledge myself, with a solemn invocation, that I never will vote for them. When the gentleman tells us that every country which has lost its liberty has lost it by a standing army, did he mean that it was by a standing army of its own, or by Mr. SOUTHARD remarked, that, from the arguthe standing army of a foreign Power, to which it ments used by gentlemen, it might be supposed had not a regular force to oppose? Mr. D. cited that the question was, whether they should raise several instances from history of liberty lost by a standing army or make a requisition of the minations from other causes than standing armies. litia. This was not the question. The question What is there, said he, in all this noise about stand-was, whether they would pass this bill to raise a ing armies and war? If we have war, those who best understand it must have preference: the ripest in experience in everything is superior to the novice. Does the gentleman mean to say that the small addition to their present military force. No man placed more implicit confidence in the militia than himself, but he wished a small addition to the regular force. He thanked God that the force which we have had been efficient to meet and face an enemy on the Sabine, and to crush one of the most nefarious plots that ever existed in the country, and that we had so far an honest man to command it as to do this effectually. He wished the country always to be prepared to crush an internal foe or an external enemy. H. of R. Mr. M. CLAY hoped the Committee would rise, for it was past three o'clock. Mr. EPPES agreed with gentlemen who said that there could be no danger from these few men; but it was the commencement of a system which had destroyed the liberties of all countries. The gentleman represents me, observed Mr. E., as sayMr. RHEA urged the passage of the bill. He ing that I never would, on any account, vote for did not know what information the gentleman regular troops. In the warmth of debate, I might from Connecticut could want. All his observa- have said so, but my meaning was, that I would tions had gone to the detail and not to the merits never rely altogether on regular troops. If I unof the bill. The gentleman from Virginia (Mr. derstood the gentleman from Connecticut, he EPPES) seemed to think they ought now to de- agrees with me in wishing the Committee to rise cide what method of defence they would adopt. and in objecting to the bill, but he is apprehenThere were several bills before the House for sive lest it should be supposed that he is opposed classing the militia, raising a provisional and to a standing army, and has quoted history in a standing army, and the question could as well favor of that species of force. On some other be determined on this bill as on any other. The occasion I will take an opportunity for a more House, said he, goes into a Committee on the mili- ample discussion with the gentleman on this tia bill, spend three or four days on that without subject. The gentleman says some men always doing anything; after that, takes up the bill for vote against taxes. I might retort upon the genthe provisional army with the same success; then tleman, and say that some gentlemen always vote the war establishment; after four or five days for them. I understood him to say that some spent on it, the Committee will rise, and obtain gentlemen do it to reconcile it with their constileave to sit again, and perhaps we never may get tuents. My constituents were always opposed to it up afterwards. I am not in favor of a standing high taxes and standing armies; in 1798 and 1799 army, but wish an addition to the present force. they learned to dislike them, when the gentleGentlemen have told us of the militia performing man's constituents learned to like them. Mine that which the regulars could not. The regulars have ever since been against them, and his in faunder General Wayne achieved what the militia vor of them. He speaks the sentiments of those could not, and finished that war, which had cost whom he represents, and I likewise. What I adso much. Mr. R. then alluded to the situation of vocate now were my sentiments in 1798 and 1799, Michigan, Detroit, and Louisiana; their unpro-and the reverse was professed and practised by tected situation weighed with him to insist that the gentleman from Connecticut. We are both the Committee should not rise. The gentleman consistent; he has not quit his course, and I trust from Virginia had told them that he would rather I shall not quit mine. But we are told that this give them 30,000 stand of arms than 1,000 regu- measure is absolutely necessary, to give the nalars. I wish for both, said Mr. R., and if the gen- tion that dignified attitude which is required in tleman would give us arms with such liberal mu- the present convulsed state of the world. It renificence, he will give us men also-not for our ally would be curious to publish the observations defence, but for the service of the United States. of the gentleman from New York in one column We do not wish defence for ourselves, but for our and the law under consideration in another. He extended frontier. We do not know the month, calls upon us to raise a thousand troops to show day, or hour, in which we may hear that thou- that we mean to protect our citizens and insure sands have been massacred. What security have justice. I hope in God, whenever the United we that the country is not already attacked? States are disposed to show their attachment to While we are disputing about the expense of a my district of country, that it will not be by sendfew regular troops, our neighbors may do us a ing us regular troops. We want them not. For mischief to the amount of ten times the expense what purpose are they to be sent to the Western of these troops. I do not like this contracted pol- country? To overawe sedition? There was icy; I wish to save money as much as any man, never yet a country in which they have not probut not in this way. We have gone on long duced it. Oppression and tyranny will drive the enough in this routine of reading first one bill and people to rebellion, and standing armies produce then another, without doing anything. Gentle- both. What is the case in the Territories? Do men say they will arm our own citizens, and not we not see that you can scarcely put an officer employ regular troops. If these regular troops there who can withstand the prevalent faction are not our own citizens, where will you get them and party? And such will always be the case from? I have as much confidence in the militia where there is a superior tribunal to look up to. as any one; at the same time I agree with the If there be anything which will harass and disgentleman from New York, that from 10,000 reg-gust the people, it will be the sending an army ular troops there would be no danger to the United States-nor from 20,000. The only danger from a standing army is, when it is so large as to overcome the others. There would be no danger from this number with even an Alexander or a Cæsar at their head. amongst them. I do not want to keep them quiet in that way. If they rebel, I would rather take the system of punishing them for it. I have always been opposed to standing armies in time of peace; and I always shall be opposed to resting the defence of the nation on standing troops. I did not mean to say that I should always vote against them, but that I would not rest the defence of the nation on them alone. Mr. LYON made some observations in favor of the bill. He hoped this was the auspicious time to increase the regular force of the United States. Mr. L. compared the discussion which had taken place in relation to garrisons to a dispute which might arise in a city whether it should be watched by men hired for the purpose or by alternate watches of the citizens themselves. He took a view of the exposed situation of the Western country, and advocated, generally, the support of a moderate standing force. He expected the Committee would rise, as it was late; but he hoped the subject would be resumed and the bill passed, if it were only that they might approach one step nearer to putting the nation in a state of defence. The Committee then rose-yeas 70, and obtained leave to sit again. THURSDAY, February 18. The amendatory bill concerning Courts Martial and Courts of Inquiry, yesterday presented to the House by Mr. JOHN MONTGOMERY, was read the second time, and committed to a Committee of the whole House to morrow. Mr. DESHA presented to the House a resolution of the State of Kentucky, relative to the opening of a wagon road from the Ohio river, opposite Port William, to intersect the road leading from Cincinnati to Fort Wayne, near or at Fort Recovery. The said resolution was read; Whereupon, a motion was made by Mr. DESHA, that the House do come to the following resolution: Resolved, That the Committee on Public Lands be directed to inquire into the expediency of opening a wagon road from the Ohio river, oposite Port William, at the mouth of Kentucky, to intersect the road leading from Cincinnati to Fort Wayne, near or at Fort Recovery; and that they be authorized to report by bill, or otherwise. On motion of Mr. DANA, Resolved, That the Committee of Commerce and Manufactures be instructed to inquire into the propriety of causing such buoys to be provided and placed, as may be requisite for the security of navigation, at and near the entrance of Connecticut river; and to report by bill, or other wise. On motion of Mr. CHANDLER, FEBRUARY, 1808. ditional army. The blanks in the bill were so filled as to provide as follows: That there be raised nine regiments of infantry of 1,000 men each, one regiment of artillerists of 1,200 men, two regiments of cavalry of 600 men each, and two regiments of riflemen of 600 each, for three years, unless sooner discharged; to be commanded by two Major Generals, four Brigadier Generals, one Inspector General, and two Assistant Inspectors. After the bill was gone through, the Committee rose, 47 to 46, reported progress, and asked leave to sit again. FOREIGN RELATIONS. Mr. VAN DYKE submitted the following resolution, which the House agreed to consider. Resolved, That the President of the United States be requested to communicate to this House such information touching our foreign relations as he may deem consistent with the public interest, the better to enable this House to judge how far the Military Establishment of the United States ought to be increased. Mr. VAN DYKE said it would be recollected that the President, in his Message to Congress, had given reason to believe that he would in the course of the session lay before them information relating to this very subject. A negotiation was now going on; in what situation it is impossible to say. We know nothing of it as legislators, said he, for certainly we as legislators cannot act on the rumors which are afloat. There ought to be a communication between the Chief Magistrate and the Representatives of the Union when employed in public business. The Chief Magistrate cannot find himself embarrassed by this resolution; it is couched in terms which leave him at liberty to communicate that information, or withhold it. It is not my wish to extract from the Cabinet a single syllable which would affect the negotiations, but, when bills of this kind are brought before us, it must be desirable to every man anxious to discharge his duty to know what can be known on this important subject. Itherefore hope the House, who are now acting blindfold as to the subject of foreign relations, will request the Executive to give us such information as can be communicated, to enable us to judge of the expediency of increasing our Military Establishment. Mr. DAWSON hoped the resolution would not be agreed to. Under the Constitution, which it is the duty of the President to obey, he is directed to give to this House, whenever he shall think proper, information relative to the matters within our cognizance. Had the gentleman from Delaware read the last Message from the President on the subject of foreign affairs, he would have there found nothing shall be wanting on my part Resolved, That a committee be appointed to take into consideration the expediency of raising by enlistment, and organizing a number of vol unteer troops, not exceeding twenty-four thousand men, for the service of the United States; and that they have leave to report by bill, or other-which may give information or despatch to the wise. Ordered, That Mr. CHANDLER, Mr. TALL- The House went into a Committee of the proceedings of the Legislature in the exercise of their high duties at a moment so interesting to the public welfare." This assurance was made when we first convened, and in this I place entire confidence. Whenever the public good requires, a disclosure will be made. I have no doubt at all times and in every point which it is his duty to FEBRUARY, 1808. Foreign Relations. H. of R. inform the House that he will make communica-derstood to say none of consequence, when comtion. In my judgment it would at this time be pared with the immense mass which the Executive improper to make the communication which the must possess-compared with those volumes of gentleman calls for. If there be any subject which documents which every man within these walls requires Executive secrecy, it is the negotiation knows that the Executive does possess, nothing now pending. Does the gentleman desire that the has been stated to us. Do gentleman who object President should say, I wish to raise fifty or one to this resolution recollect that this House, as a hundred thousand men? Would not this show branch of the National Legislature, is intrusted the state of the negotiation, and would it not have with the most important, most awful power that an ill effect? At any time when anything shall can be confided to any department of any governoccur which shall require a decisive act, no doubt ment, the power to declare war? communication will be made. At the commencement of this session members Mr. ELLIOT said he differed radically with the on this floor, highly respected for their political gentleman from Virginia. He thought this the talents, venerable for their political experience, most proper time that could have been selected for members, at least one of them, second to none in calling upon the President of the United States political service, told us that they considered that for information respecting our foreign relations. we were already actually in a state of war. I Was there ever a time, said Mr. E., when a crisis differed from them. I did not believe we were in of such moment, amid circumstances so inauspi- a state of war-nor do I believe that we are now; cious and ominous as those which now encircle but every one knows that there is a prospect, nay, us, could render information more desirable? Can a great probability of war, and Congress alone can there ever be such a time, when this House shall prepare for the event. The measure now under have less information than at this time on the consideration (the bill for raising an additional subject of our relations with foreign Powers? Are army) and which appears to have led to this reswe never to be permitted to pierce this impenetra-olution calling for information, is certainly a meable veil which has so long covered our political sure of a warlike aspect. Do we want an addiprospect with thick and dark clouds? Shall not tional army, if we have no prospect of war? We a solitary ray of light wander through the gloom? have distinct bills for an addition to the Peace EsI hope we are not much longer to remain in dark- tablishment and for a provisional army. It apness. I hope the Representatives of the American pears to me then that we ought to know, as far people, and the people themselves are, at no very as we can with propriety, what is the prospect, distant date, to know how our foreign relations not in the most extensive view of it. only now stand, but how they have been conducted In the Message of the President of the United for several years past. Over our relations with States at the commencement of the present session, Spain and France, notwithstanding their extreme- of our differences with Spain he says, they "rely delicate character, a cloud as dark as ever cov-main still unsettled; no measure having been taken ered the political atmosphere of any Republic has long been suspended. All we know is, that dreadful is the prospect, and that "shadows, clouds and darkness rest upon it." But the reason why it is said this is so inauspicious a time is, because a negotiation is going on between the Government of the United States and an Envoy Extraordinary from the Government of Great Britain; because a negotiation is going on at the seat of Government, with one of the three great Powers of Europe with whom our relations are so interesting, we are not to call for information on the subject of our foreign relations generally. If I understand the resolution now under consideration it is a call for a general view of our situation; it calls for such information respecting our foreign relations as the President shall deem it consistent with the public interest to communicate. Is it possible that at any moment whatever a request of that kind can be objected to? Can there be a time when it could be liable to the least objection? Every gentleman knows that we have not the power to coerce information; our power is limited to the request. As the President's Message has been alluded to, I will observe that we are told in his Message that important information will soon be communicated-and none of any consequence has yet been communicated. When I say that no information of consequence has been communicated, I would be un on her part, since my last communications, to bring them to a close. But under a state of things which may favor reconsideration, they have been ' recently pressed, and an expectation is entertained that they may soon be brought to an issue of some 'sort." We have no information on this subject; but, if we may judge from what has heretofore taken place, we must expect war with Spain. She has once invaded our territory; in consequence of an agreement with our Commander-in-Chief the invaders retired; and we are now told no measures have since that time been taken to bring our differences with her to a close. Spain felt herself authorized to take possession of a portion of our territory, and since that time no concession has been made which can give us the least assurance that she has abandoned the claim or that she may not soon reassert it. As it respects the same Power, we are told: "To our former grounds of complaint has been added a very serious one, as you will see by the decree, a copy of which is now communicated. Whether this decree, which professes to be conformable to that of the French Government of November 21, 1806, heretofore communicated to Congress, will also be conformed to that in its construction and application in relation to the United States, had not been ascertained at the date of our last communications. These, however, gave reason to expect such a conformity." |