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tions, and was published with the authority of a member of parliament, as a report of what was said, which could not any where else be published as an original work. Such things appeared to him to be monstrous. If any body were to ask him what he thought was the cause of the dreadful mutiny last year, which so reasonably alarmed every good man, and which, but for the vigorous exertions of government, would soon have reduced this country to nothing, he would say, it was the daily publication of the debates of that House more than any thing else. He was not complaining of gentlemen for saying the war was unjust and unnecessary: if they thought so, they were right in so saying. But was it a desirable thing that the public at large, that the lower classes of the community from one end of the kingdom to the other, should, from day to day be told so? That the sailors and the soldiers should be told that they were fighting against justice and against the liberty of mankind; that they were the tools of despotic power, that their blood was shed, their lives sacrificed, to the folly or the wickedness of those by whom they were governed ?-and all this coming from men of great weight from their talents, and in many respects of great credit in the country. Supposing all this language to be proper, he was saying that the effect of it must necessarily be dreadful to the community in which we live. It was then a question, whether the House was justified in allowing to exist a cause which produced that effect, and that cause, too, arising out of a breach of the privilege of the House? It might be said, that this was answered by the publication of the doctrine maintained on the other side. But this did not satisfy his mind. It led to a question that was too long for discussion in that House upon the present occasion, and opened a view into the general theme of political institution, and the means of diffusing throughout the world all species of po-magogue were put in practice, and then litical instruction. And here there was to be dreaded a double misrepresentation the misrepresentation of the abuse, and the misrepresentation of the defence of government; and therefore he who objected to the publication of either could hardly be said to be contented with the publication of both. Yet, if all this was only addressed to persons of great judgment, perhaps he should not object to it. But that was by no means [VOL. XXXIV.]

the case; for the great mass of the readers of newspapers were not the most discerning class of society, nor was it to be expected they should be so, for the advertisements and other articles of which a newspaper was composed were often interesting chiefly to the lower orders of the community. They were for this very reason carried every where, read every where, by persons of very inferior capacities, and in common alehouses and places frequented chiefly by those who were least of all accustomed to reflection, to any great mental efforts. Gentlemen might say, "Let all persons be allowed to judge for themselves." This sounded pretty well; but it was a mere sound Mankind had never yet been in circumstances that enabled the mass of them to judge correctly of any thing that required much mental exertion. Condemned as they were to labour of body, it had not yet been practicable for them to judge correctly of abstruse questions; and he knew of none that were more so, than such as arose out of the complication of political affairs. The people at large were entitled to justice-they were entitled to every favour that could be shown to them consistently with their own safety, on which depended their own happiness-they were entitled to every advantage they could possibly be capable of enjoying, as much as the proudest person in the state; but they had not education to enable them to judge of political affairs. Those were not their best friends who told them otherwise. If any gentlemen who heard him doubted this, he would ask them, whether they were in the habit of calling in their gardeners and their grooms to give their opinions upon political affairs? He knew they would do so when they met in large bodies, and made up the bulk of a gentleman's constituents, especially when their opinions were to be followed up by their votes; for then the cajoling arts of the true de

was the multitude tempted, as the devil tempted Eve, by telling them they had all sorts of perfection. After reflecting upon this, he hoped gentlemen would not be so ready to talk of the competency of the multitude to form correct opinions upon political affairs.-But it might be said, that if the reports of the newspapers were stopped, some means would be found to circulate sentiments against government, and that they would be more [M]

what was the common case, to sit down
tamely under it. Really, unless the House
thought it worth while to support its own
dignity better, it hardly deserved better
usage! But they would do well to take
notice, what the effect might in time be
of this ill-judged good nature. They
might fall in the public estimation, as did
another assembly in another country, who
soon felt the effect of letting strangers
into their galleries, under the pretence,
that the proceedings of the representative
body should be open, and that no part of
the people should be excluded from hear-
ing it. The rabble of Paris, by bribery
and other despicable practices, got into the
galleries, and their presence soon put an
end to the representation of the country;
it was soon turned into the mere semblance
of a representation. If that House was
to give up its privilege, merely because it
had for a while connived at the abuse of it;
if the House was to be said to have the
power of stopping up the footpath, and
yet would not exclude a single passenger,
he would have nothing farther to say.
Gentlemen might talk of the matter as
lightly as they pleased; but, unless they
vindicated their privileges now, they
might feel the effect of an ill-judged lenity.
-But he should leave this point now,
and go back again to another evil of which
he had before complained, namely, that
suffering newspapers to publish reports of
their proceedings, would be allowing the
evil itself to increase every day, for that
very sufferance had of itself given occa-
sion for the multiplication of public prints.
The practice of publishing debates was an
appeal from the representative body, to
the people at large out of doors, of all
orders, from the highest to the lowest.
That newspaper writers were not the best
judges of political affairs he considered as
an undisputed point-to say nothing of
their integrity; and this he conceived also
to be an important point. That a great
many of these newspapers were brought
into existence and nourished by debates
in parliament, was also a clear point; for
he knew, that when there was a complaint
made against a printer in the year 1771,
his plea was, that if the House took away
from him the power of publishing the de-
bates of that House, they would take away
from him his bread. The House, if it
allowed these debates to be continued,
would put in action a poison which was

injurious to the public than these: that something like Paine's Rights of Man would go forth. Such publications were circulated certainly, and they did very considerable mischief; but they could not possibly have the effect of the newspapers, because as the circulation of them was attended with considerable expense, it could not be so extensive as the newspapers were, and therefore not such an evil; nor were they so constant. It might be said, that by the publication of the debates of parliament, the bane and antidote go both together. He did not think that such had hitherto been the effect of the publication of the debates; and he knew of nothing so likely to guide the judgment rightly as experience. In fact, the practice of reporting debates for the last fifteen or sixteen years, had contributed more to the evils of which many had complained, than any other practice he had heard of in that time. It was an evil in its nature; it was an inflammatory information at the best; it kindled over again and spread all over the country, that heat among the lower classes, which was sometimes deprecated even in that House, as being likely to mislead those who possessed the best means of forming correct judgments. Such were the evils of teaching the lower classes of the community that they were politicians.-Now if these were his ideas on the general effects of this practice, how did the case stand upon particular points that were to be considered incidentally? It was a practice that struck directly at the dignity of the House. What was to be the character of that House in the eye of the public, if what passed in it was not only to be reported in the newspapers, but a description was to be given also of the tone, manner, and action of each member, like that of a criticism upon another description of persons, of whom he had no disposition to speak contumeliously, but of whom it was no disparagement to say, they were more adapted than the senate for public entertainment-he meant persons who were called actors. What was to become of the dignity of that House, he would ask, if the manners and gestures and tone and action of each member, were to be subject to the licence, the abuse, the ribaldry of newspapers? There were but two remedies for this, as the practice now was, either for a member to condescend to an altercation in the newspapers with those who ridiculed him, or,

See Vol. 17, p. 87 and 89.

any thing, but that species of information which was destructive to every good principle, and was hostile to the character of every public man, or individual in whom public trust was reposed. It produced also the inconvenience of which the hon. gentleman who made this motion, but for reasons he could not well understand, wished to withdraw it, complained; but that was its least evil. But as the House had now the opportunity (which by the way had been well to have occurred sooner), it ought not to be lost; the character of the House ought to be vindicated, and the advantage of the public ought to be regarded. What course the House would take was not for him, but for others, to determine. He had no motion himself to make; he left every thing open to the House. He was desirous of delivering his sentiments on this subject, because the occasion which offered was not frequent, although the occasion which called for the animadversion and decision of the House was much too frequent; and this not because gentlemen did not know, but because they chose to abandon their privileges. He had declared his opinion on this practice of newspaper reporting. The House would judge of what was right to done. He did not wish to say any thing more, whether the House ought now to come to a decision of either confirming the old practice of prohibition, or of favouring the relaxation of very modern times. He had now no other duty to discharge to that House, except returning thanks for the indulgence with which he had been heard.

circulated every twenty-four hours, and spread its venom down to the extremity of the kingdom. What, in the course of a very few years, was likely to be the effect of such a practice; into what hands newspapers would fall, whether they were likely to be friendly to good morals in future, from the specimen we had seen of them of late years, were points into which he would not now inquire. The question was not only whom these papers would find out, but also who would find out these papers, what sort of talents the owners of them were likely to possess, or, what was a larger question, what sort of talents those who were owners of papers might employ to write for them, were all of them points well worthy of the speculation of the House. Before they allowed newspapers to detail their proceedings, they would do well to consider how those who wrote for newspapers in general had contributed to the overthrow of the different governments of the world which had been lately overturned, and had been employed in causing so many insurrections as had lately rendered so much of the habitable globe uneasy.-How much of the talents of those who wrote for newspapers had been employed in scattering poison wherever they could; in bringing virtue into discredit, by telling the people every where that those who professed it, and who ought to possess it, and who in general did possess virtue, had no virtue whatever, by teaching the ignorant and the credulous to despise every man and every measure that was respectable. Such were the efforts, generally speaking, of those who wrote for newspapers. He Mr. Wilberforce observed, that though felt this so forcibly, that he confessed he the disposition of the hon. gentleman to never saw any man of a low condition with withdraw the motion he had grounded on a newspaper in his hand, and who read his complaint, rendered it unnecessary for any of it, without comparing him to a man him to trouble the House with much of who was swallowing poison under the hope what he should otherwise have judged it of improving his health. He was not to necessary to lay before them, yet various be led away with any notions that might circumstances combined in prompting him be entertained by some persons concern- to trespass upon their attention for a few ing the liberty of the press. Before any moments, particularly after what had just good could be done by the discussion of fallen from his right hon. friend. He was political subjects in newspapers, the capa- very solicitous to prevent any possible city of the people must be enlarged. misconstruction of the principles on which These were only a few of the objections he had himself acted, in very lately presswhich he felt to the publication of parlia-ing upon the serious consideration of the mentary proceedings in newspapers. It House, the scandalous misstatements of lessened the dignity of the House of Com- their proceedings which had become so mons: it put the members of it in a situa- general, and the propriety, and indeed tion in which they ought not to stand; it necessity, of applying, if possible, some fomented discontents throughout the na- remedy to that great and growing evil.* tion; it multiplied nothing, or very rarely

See p. 154 of the present Volume.

specific character, he believed there never was a time when the representative body possessed a higher place in the respect and affections of the people.-He trusted the discussion of that day would not be wholly without its use: that though he, and he trusted a large majority of the House, was friendly to the publication of their proceedings, and though even if this were otherwise, it would be highly unjust in the House without notice to punish persons for the breach of a standing order, which, for so many years, they had neglected to enforce; yet it would be understood that the House was not wholly regardless of the manner in which their speeches and proceedings should be reported. What had now passed must be considered as a sort of notice and warning to reporters, not to presume too far upon the indulgence of the House and the patience of individuals. He trusted there would be consequently somewhat less of wilful misrepresentation than had hitherto been suffered to prevail, and he would again declare, that the more publicity was given to whatever was really said or done in parliament, the more would that House become the object of esteem and attachment to their constituents, and the nation at large.

Those gentlemen who were present on that occasion would recollect that he had not intimated the slightest intention of complaining to the House of any particular publication, whatever ground he personally might have for such a complaint: his object was, a general redress of a general grievance. Nor had he expressed the smallest wish, that the House should enforce its standing order, and prevent altogether the publication of its proceedings. He had even then suggested, that almost any thing should be borne, and any expedient be tried, rather than resort to such a remedy: and he felt himself now called upon, by what had been stated by his right hon.friend to declare it as his fixed opinion, that (the House reserving to itself of course a right to shut its gallery, at its discretion, when the delicacy of any particular discussion might render it expedient), the publication of their debates and proceedings was not injurious, but highly beneficial to the country. He altogether differed from his right hon. friend, who had urged that it had almost changed, or at least strongly tended to change, the nature of our constitution from representative to democratical, conceiving it to be, in fact, perfectly and strictly constitutional. The people of Great Britain indeed devolved on the representative body, Mr. Secretary Dundas said, he had long for a term of years, the duty of watching been convinced that the practice of pubover their rights and interests; but did it lishing a mutilated and incorrect account follow that they were not to pay attention of what passed in parliament, was calcuto the conduct and language of those related to affect the honour and the usefulpresentatives in the execution of the trust reposed? How, then, should they be qualified, at the end of the term, for judging whether to continue the trust in the same hands, or transfer it to others? He did not hesitate to declare, that in general those persons who were for ever improperly busying themselves in politics were among the least useful, and least worthy, members of the community: but the constituent, no less than the representative, had a duty to discharge, and how should he discharge it well, without the necessary means of information? But in truth he must say, that experience completely refuted his right hon. friend's assertion; for, notwithstanding all the misrepresentations which had prevailed, he had the satisfaction of being able to declare that the happiest consequences had actually followed from the notoriety of their debates, and from the eye of the public having been fixed upon them. So far from their having thereby at all lost their "

ness of the House. He conceived before the complaint could be withdrawn, the hon. gentleman must move for the leave of the House. It could not be allowed to stand on the Journals that the House had suffered such a complaint to drop without showing in what manner it was done. The subject ought to be considered not on personal grounds, but as something deeply connected with the usefulness and the dignity of the House. He must observe, that there were other attacks calculated to degrade and vilify the House, which ought not to pass unnoticed. There were cases in which the House was grossly libelled by its own members. But such proceedings should not go on. If any member was guilty of a libel upon it, he was determined to propose some means that should put an end to the practice, and punish the offender. He could not help referring to what had been represented to have been said by a certain hon. gentleman who had thought proper to de

sert his duty in parliament, at a club in this town. That gentleman, who never showed his face in the House, had gone to that club, and, if fairly represented, had uttered a gross libel on the House. Such practices should not any longer go on. There was another case, too, in which the hon. gentleman who brought forward the present complaint, was represented to have used expressions, at a meeting of some of his constituents, which were a scandalous libel on the House. He was reported to have said, that he never heard of parliament meeting for the dispatch of business, but he considered it to be for the dispatch of the property of himself and his constituents. When such things as these were passed over unnoticed, he should be hurt to death to extend the utmost rigour of the House to offences so inferior in danger and malignity. The House might rest assured that if it did not protect itself against the libellous attacks of its own members, it would in vain endeavour to repress the attacks of others. Members were protected in the House from any consequences that might arise from what they said, except what the House itself might inflict; but in return for that protection, they ought not to be permitted in other places to degrade, and vilify the House.

The said complaint was then, with leave of the House, withdrawn.

Debate in the Lords on the Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill.] January 4. 1799. On the order of the day for the third reading of the bill for suspending the Habeas Corpus act.

The Earl of Suffolk said, that ministers should have assigned some reason for this bill before they proposed it to the House. To bring forward a measure, at all times grievous, and an infringement of the constitution, without any necessity for it, was highly unjust; and of the necessity, there was no proof. At the same time he acknowledged, that if the state was in danger, the present measure ought to be adopted; but if ministers were to be entrusted with the power which this bill conferred upon them, they ought, at all events, to use it with moderation, and here his lordship said, he was led to reflect on the case of a gentleman, whom he had not seen for seventeen years; a man of as amiable manners and worthy disposition as any he ever knew. He alluded to colonel Despard. He knew that

gentleman in the service abroad, when his lordship had a command of brigade. He had frequent occasions to converse with colonel Despard, and he was convinced, from all he saw of him, that he was a man of an excellent disposition. He knew very little of the situation of that gentleman, and therefore, if he should happen to state any thing that was not correct, he hoped he should be excused. His information was, that colonel Despard was very severely treated in the prison in which he was now confined; that he was kept in a cell of seven feet square, without fire, without light, and without any thing to rest upon but a truckle bed. If true it was a very hard case. He wished to know, whether this was a species of confinement fit for a gentleman of such a character, and against whom there was no crime alleged. He insisted that he had not been guilty of any crime, that he was entitled to be set at liberty; after which he was told there was no charge against him, for that it was his brother government wanted. Having said this, he would venture to introduce another matter, not immediately connected with the subject before the House, but of such a nature as to come naturally into view when any measure was considered that had reference to conspiracy for treason. Perhaps he might again be abused for what he was about to do, as he had been for the evidence he gave on the trial of O'Connor at Maidstone. He was in Scotland three or four months ago; and there he saw a character of the earl of Suffolk as one of the witnesses for O'Connor, in which he was most wantonly libelled, and in which it was made to appear as if he had been the intimate acquain tance of O'Connor. Now he did upon his honour most solemnly declare, that he never had any conversation with O'Connor, except one about eleven years ago, and from that conversation he was of opinion that he never met with a more gentlemanlike man in his life, and he never heard from him a sentiment that would not do honour to any man.

Lord Grenville said, that with regard to the newspaper misrepresentation of which the noble lord had complained, he could assure him that no one abhorred more than he did those libels with which private and public characters of every description were daily assailed. Nothing was more injurious in this country than the licence now taken by the press. Indeed it was his opinion, that if the wisdom of parlia

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