vinced as I am of the impropriety of continuing to discuss it here. This consideration I should have hoped would have had some weight with the right hon. gentleman, and have taught him not to persist in the pledge which he so boldly gave in the course of the first debate on this subject. The right hon. gentleman de

in point of principle, when the noble lord himself had found them so far unobjectionable. But if they should be carried, and the committee should then pause, there would stand on the records of the House, some declarations which, however moderate, pointed towards a union; and there would appear sufficiently intelligible traces of a censure on the conduct of go-clared, that to accomplish a union of the vernment in the late dismissals, which, he trusted, would yet be retracted on the one side, and forgotten on the other, that nothing might remain to rankle, and keep alive the animosities, to which the speech from the throne had unhappily given birth in the sister-kingdom.

The question being put, That his majesty's Message be referred to the consideration of a committee of the whole House, the House divided:

YEAS

NOES

Tellers.

(Lord Hawkesbury
Mr. Douglas -

Mr. Sheridan

140

15

Mr. St. Andrew St. John J The House accordingly_resolved itself into the committee: Mr. Douglas in the chair. The resolutions having been read in the committee, the House was resumed, and the committee obtained leave to sit again on Thursday.

Feb. 7. On the order of the day being read for the House to resolve itself into a committee, to consider further of his Majesty's Message respecting the proposed union with Ireland,

two kingdoms should be the object of his life. The House will, however, do well to pause before they advance farther. The question now before us is, whether we are willing to second the pledge which the right hon. gentleman has given? The right hon. gentleman has before now duped the people with his pledges, and he may, perhaps, think proper at last to abandon this. Be that as it may, nothing could so much tend to increase the evils which at present exist in Ireland, as this House sanctioning the present pledge of the right hon. gentleman.

The effect of that pledge must be considerable on the people of Ireland. It will produce much irritation, and inflame all those discontents which have already occasioned so much misery in that country. If adopted by this House, the mischief would be still greater. It is difficult to conceive what object he proposes to himself by proceeding in this measure. What advantage will his argument of the necessity of a union receive from the House joining in his pledge, when the Irish House of Commons has already decided against it? If the House sanctions the project of the right hon. gentleman Mr. Sheridan said:-Having on the the two Houses of Commons of Great two former occasions, in which the present Britain and Ireland will be placed in opsubject was under discussion, trespassed position to each other, and the situation a good deal on the attention of the of these kingdoms will be more alarming, House, I feel it incumbent upon me to than that in which any two countries protake up as little of their time as possible fessing amity for each other ever before now. I shall therefore only urge a few of stood. Does the right hon. gentleman the many reasons which might be ad not know, that while he declares his devanced in support of the resolutions I in- termination to persist in this measure, the tend to move. Indeed, I think it the Irish will fancy they can penetrate the more incumbent on me to say less at pre- means to which he will resort to carry it? sent than I otherwise should, because If he do not succeed on the present occathough at the commencement of the de- sion, they must be convinced that he only bates on this measure I had the singula- waits for a moment when Ireland shall be rity of standing alone in opposition to the more weak to carry his favourite project, right hon. gentleman's project, yet several and that intimidation and corruption are gentlemen knowing the irritation pro- the engines he proposes to use. But it duced in the public mind by the agita- ought to be recollected, that the Irish tion of this question, and knowing the parliament do not look upon their conmarked disapprobation the mere sugges-nexion with us as a boon-they claim to tion of the measure has received from the be independent. If, then, the right hon. Irish parliament, are now as much con- gentleman has sincerely pledged himself, [VOL. XXXIV.] [Y]

He

there is no other course left for Ireland to in somewhat a different manner. take, but to guard against the influence would incorporate a few of the represenand the power of the British parliament. tatives of the people of Ireland in the It has been observed, that Ireland cannot British parliament. With respect to the exist without the support of this country; means by which these measures were to and a noble friend of the right hon. gen- be carried into effect, they are also tleman has held out a threat of withdraw- agreed. The united Irishmen said, they ing from Ireland that protection to which knew better what was good for Ireland she is indebted for her safety, and without than all the rest of the people of Ireland which she neither could defend herself did: the right hon. gentleman has said against a foreign enemy, nor survive in- the same thing of himself. Like him, too, testine warfare. Thus the people of Ire- the united Irishmen did not scruple to land are plainly told what is to be the make use of corruption to gain their obconsequence of their refusing to surrender ject: they resorted to force and intimidatheir independent legislature. The House tion; the right hon. gentleman has done then is called upon to put the two coun- the same. The only difference between tries in a situation the most perilous and the two was, that the united Irishmen, frightful. conceiving their parliament to be the mere tools of England, were for deposing it, and setting up a republican form of government with foreign assistance; while the right hon. gentleman is for merging the Irish representation into that of England: his plan, as well as theirs, proposes the extinguishing of the parliament of Ireland, and the means he uses to insure success, are the same as those to which they resorted.

It is curious to observe the arguments which the right hon. gentleman and his friends have used in support of the measure. One would be tempted to think, that the right hon. gentleman had formed a coalition with the united Irishmen, with whom he seems to be perfectly agreed in five out of six of their leading principles. The united Irishmen wished to destroy the present constitution of Ireland; this is also the object of the right hon. gentle- The question, then, which we have now man. The united Irishmen declared the to consider is, whether a British parliaparliament of Ireland to be the cause of ment will second the right hon. gentleman all the miseries with which that country in his project, and sanction this similarity had been afflicted: the right hon. gen- between him and the leaders of that retleman has brought forward the same ac- bellion, which the House lately so much cusation against them. The united Irishmen deplored. It was once observed by an charged the legislature of their country hon. friend of mine, in speaking of an with being the dupe of the English party: hon. member of this House, that he had a the right hon. gentleman also ascribes all temper so pugnacious and so obstinate, the distractions and all the misfortunes of that if he saw two persons fighting in the Ireland, to the influence of a British fac- streets he would never think of separating tion over the parliament of Ireland. It is them, but would rather insist that they not, indeed, to the faction which he heads should go on and fight it out. This was there, that he ascribes this influence, but said by an amateur of the art of puhe has asserted, that it was exerted by gilism, at a time when that honourable one, at the head of which the duke of science was held in greater repute than it Portland stood, and of which his hon. is now. But with whatever truth it may friend near him (Mr. Windham) was a have been said, I should hope that no semember. He has told us, that that fac-cretary at war would wish to see a legislation made a tool of the Irish parliament to answer its own purposes; and the united Irishmen have repeatedly made the same assertion: thus they are agreed as to the evil. They are also agreed as to the remedy; for they both prescribe a revolution-delenda est Carthago is the maxim of both; the Irish parliament, they agree, must be destroyed, and this is made the grand cure. The united Irishmen and the right hon. gentleman have proposed to apply their remedy, however,

tive battle of the kind with which we are now threatened, but that he would rather wish to separate the combatants when he should know that they were the Irish parliament and the British chancellor of the exchequer. Let the battle, however, be fought when it may, it will not be uninteresting. Each party is well seconded. The chancellor of the exchequer has two allies-corruption and intimidation. The people of Ireland have two allies also-honour and resolution;-honour to resist the

right hon. gentleman must show that the state of Ireland would have this day been better than it now is, if a union had taken place at a former period: he must prove to us, that the adoption of this measure would have prevented insurrection, silenced discontents, united discordant interests, and conciliated the exasperated feelings and irritable passions of the country. Unless he do this, his case is not made out, and upon this ground I am willing to rest the merits of the discussion. Doubtless there is much to be done in the way of reform and improvement in Ireland; but to do this it surely is not necessary to pull down the credit and autho

corruption, and resolution to laugh at the intimidation of the right hon. gentleman. We have been told, that the existence of Ireland depends upon this project being carried. This I deny. The proposition has not, and never can be made out; but it isa melancholy consideration that the right hon. gentleman should obstinately persist in his scheme, after the solemn manner in which it has been rejected by the parliament of Ireland, and after he knows in what detestation it has been held by the great majority of the people of that country. If the right hon. gentleman should continue in the same temper, the people of Ireland may naturally be expected to resort to every method of precaution, cal-rity of parliament. I should not have exculated to defeat his scheme, and to oppose the influence which he would exercise over them by the weight and example of the British parliament.

Much has been said upon the corruption and misgovernment of the Irish parliament; and it is not a little extraordinary that these imputations should come from those mouths which not long since poured forth eulogiums on that very parliament which they now so grossly libel. I am far from pretending that the Irish parliament is free from blame. I do not mean to say that it has never neglected its duty, nor over-stretched its power. I ascribe to it no infallibility: but when the right hon. gentleman has so lately pronounced that parliament which he now censures the saviour of Ireland-when he has, through the medium of the viceroy, congratulated them on the suppression of an insurrection, and on the defeat of an invading enemy, I may be allowed to state it as an argument against the right hon. gentleman, that after giving the parliament of Ireland credit for doing so much good to the country, he has no right, and indeed he cannot with consistency, charge them with corruption and misrule, and pretend that this new charge of his shows the necessity of the measure he wishes the House to agree to. That the parliament of Ireland has sometimes fallen into errors; that many of the evils which exist in Ireland, might have been remedied by them-these are propositions which I am not inclined to deny; but I shall always contend, that a union is not the cure for the evils complained of, and that a British legislature can never correct the political defects, or remove the distresses of Ireland, so effectually as its own legislature. To maintain this position, the

pected this conduct from the right hon. gentleman, whom I have so often heard declaim against that spirit of innovation which is prone to overthrow instead of propping and repairing ancient institutions. I should not have expected that he would be the first to lay violent hands upon the Irish parliament. Bad as he has represented that parliament, and however blamable it may have been, it has certainly recovered much of its credit and character by the noble stand it has made in defence of the liberties and independence of the country.

The argument that the right hon. gentleman and his friend used when they asserted that a union was indispensable to the continuation of the connexion between the two countries, I cannot admit. I deny that we have no alternative but separation or union. The real alternative is, that the Irish government should no longer continue to be a corrupt English job. Is it meant to be asserted that there is some innate depravity in the Irish character which renders them unfit to have a parliament of their own? No, the cause of the corruption which has been complained of is obvious. The government of Ireland has been made a job of for the advantage of English ministers. This is the corruption, this is the evil that has pervaded it from first to last, but before Ireland be required to surrender her independence, let at least a trial be made of what can be done by an honest Irish parliament; by a parliament uninfluenced by a British minister, by a parliament having the interest and the happiness of Ireland for its object, and looking to Irish prosperity and Irish gratitude for its reward. Let it not be a parliament looking only to St. James's, but one that shall

have the advantage of the country con- by a union. A noble lord has, however, stantly in view. Let this experiment at asserted, that a union would not increase least be tried before the annihilation of the number of absentees, but that, on the the Irish parliament be proposed. I am contrary, it would make gentlemen reside certain that nothing can be done in this more on their estates than they now do. way which would not tend to strengthen He contends that the importance of a the bonds that unite the two countries; seat in the imperial legislature will make and I deny that we are driven to the al- the Irish landlords anxious to cultivate ternative stated by the right hon. gentle- the affections of their tenants. This, man. In the position in which the two instead of conciliating, seems rather calcountries are now imprudently placed, if culated to insult the feelings of the peothere were a disposition to separation, that ple. They were to be told when the abdisposition must be greatly increased. sentee came to canvass, that he was not The right hon. gentleman holds out that now soliciting a seat in the puny and miIreland is helpless and dependent: he serable House of Commons of their own threatens the country with a measure it country, but in the imperial legislature: detests, and drives the people to take this is, however, a very singular argument, every precaution against the corruption since it goes to prove, that men become and the intimidation with which he me- kinder landlords in proportion as their lenaces them. The right hon. gentleman gislative duty places them at a greater has displayed much eloquence in de- distance from their tenants; that they scribing the political defects of the go- will be better neighbours, in consequence vernment of Ireland, but he will not suc-of only visiting their estates once in twelve ceed in persuading the people that all the advantages he promises them from a union cannot be as fully enjoyed under a parliament in their own country. It seems to be a favourite maxim with him and his friends, that it is not possible there can be a good government in Ireland. The absurdity of this assertion is too obvious to require refutation. On a former occasion I observed that the character and habits of the people of Ireland were such as would render the removal of their legislature fatal to their industry and ruinous to the nation. Indeed it is my confirmed opinion, that if ever there was a country in which a tangible, visible, and resident government was necessary, that country is Ireland. The right hon. gentleman has told us, that Ireland will obtain great commercial advantages in consequence of a union. Why not give Ireland those advantages without a union? He has told us that the situation of the Catholics and the Dissenters will be improved; but he has not said why these ameliorations should not take place without a union. If, indeed, Ireland is to be regarded as a conquered country, then there is an end to all arguments of this kind. If gentlemen proceed upon this principle, they should come boldly forward and state it.

It is generally admitted that the distress and poverty of the lower orders in Ireland is, in a great measure, owing to the number of absentees. This evil, it was observed, would be increased

months, and that they will all at once become humane, generous, and benevolent, from the worst of motives. It is surely no great compliment to the gentlemen of Ireland, to state that they are only likely to do good from motives such as these. The noble lord must certainly have a very high idea of the impression that will be made upon the Irish members when they enter this imperial House. He, perhaps, pictures to himself, the hundred Irish knights struck dumb with astonishment and awe: he doubtles imagines that they will all possess the kind of diffidence which used to distinguish former Speakers of this House, who were always forced into the chair, until you, Sir, set another example. The noble lord possibly expects that it will be necessary to order the serjeant at arms to force the Irish members into the imperial House, and that they will be confounded, that they will actually crawl in upon all fours, and all this the noble lord tells us will make them kinder landlords and better neighbours! This sort of argument is not very well calculated to conciliate the good will of the Irish. But it is needless to dwell longer on this. The Irish are not so dull and stupid a race as not to see its tendency. I shall therefore proceed to make the motion of which I gave notice. I believe there are few that will not agree to the first part of the resolution. It contains a truism, which if the right hon. gentleman had not already declared he would oppose, I should not have expected would have