That all societies which hold a correspondence with the French, should be put down, no man living can deny; but is not the law sufficient as it stands? Most certainly it is. The remedy proposed goes to the putting an end to all these societies together. I object to the system, of which this is only a branch; for the right hon. gentleman has told us he intends to propose laws from time to time upon this subject, as cases may arise to require them. I say these attempts lead to consequences of the most horrible kind. I see that government are acting thus. Those whom they cannot prove to be guilty, they will punish for their suspicion. To support this system, we must have a swarm of spies and informers. They are the very pillars of such a system of government. You will have the informer's word on the one hand, and the ac. cused on the other; and suppose the informer told you there were pikes in any man's house, and he denied it; and that upon search they could not be found-to what does this system lead? Directly to the torture. These things lead to a military tribunal; for without military force they can never be carried into effect. Another operation of this bill is to pull down every club in the country, for it applies to places where money is taken for admission, and I know of no clubs where money is not taken. This will put an end to all public meetings upon political subjects. The right hon. gentleman disavows the idea of an imprimatur, but talks of another sort of liability. I have no partiality for an imprimatur, but according to the view I have of his plan, I had rather have it than this, for in that case I shall have security after publication, although I am subject to the will of another before it; but this seems to subject the press to the operation of a general licence. I have another objection to this measure, and that is, the inefficacy of it. For one man in former times, there are now forty who pay attention to political subjects. Government, therefore, are right in taking precautions; and the only question between us is, what is the right precaution? If you can prove that the laws against treason are not strong enough already make them so, and you shall have my cordial assent. If there are traitors in this country, the only hope they have, is in the discontent of the people. Unless you remove the cause of that discontent, you are doing nothing. I would try mild, rather than_harsh mea

sures. I believe, that at no period were the people more quiet than they are at this moment. But do not suppose that, because they are silent, they are happy. This silence is with some taken as a proof of happiness; but the best security for a government is in the free complaints of a people. What is the common artifice of those who wish to accomplish the overthrow of our government? What is the ground of discontent which they perpetually work upon? The present state of the representation of the people. Look at the works of the most busy among them, and you will find that this is your only hope. This art of fomenting discontent was brought to a sort of trial at the Old Bailey. That was the substance of the charge made against the prisoners. Undoubtedly there are many reformers, or men who call themselves so, who really aim at the overthrow of our constitution. There are others who want nothing more than a fair reform of abuses. Such are the men who ought to be attended to. Such I take the right hon. gentleman himself to be, and what I wish is, what he formerly expressed his wish to be-a system of representation which would freely let the sense of the people of England into the House of Commons. I do not say that he should pledge himself to any specific plan, or to give countenance to the principle of universal suffrage, or any wild or impracticable scheme; but that he should declare his attachment to a moderate and temperate reform in parliament. There is a difference of opinion amongst worthy men upon this subject. Some think that at this time the subject should not be mentioned. So far from thinking so, I am convinced it would be of the greatest advantage, that the right hon. gentleman should now give notice, that whenever peace arrives, he will take up the subject. This would take away from those who wish to create discontent, ali pretext for what they are doing.

Colonel Hope said, that in his mind the measures now proposed did not go to the extent that was requisite. He recommended the enacting of a penalty against those who furnished money and advice to those societies, without, however, being members of them, for all such persons ought to be held up to the scorn and execration of the country.

The Attorney General said, that if he understood the hon. gentleman, he did not mean to deny the existence of those secret

societies, but had said, that the remedy was to give some sort of a reform of parliament. But would a reform of parliament content those discontented minds? Let the House examine coolly the evidence they were possessed of, and they could not deny, that reform would do nothing to tranquillize the ferment excited by the machinations of such malignant spirits. He could assure the hon. gentleman, however obnoxious the character of an attorney general was to those men, they felt as little respect for the doctrines of the hon. gentleman, unless he would go the full length of universal representation, and the other points of their political creed. Unless he would agree to the annihilation of monarchy, the subversion of aristocracy, and the confusion of property; unless he would agree to a system which would make every rich man poor, and no poor man rich, he was doing nothing. The hon. gentleman said, that there was no necessity for new laws, as the old ones were strong enough, and instanced the rebellions of 1715 and 1745, when the suspension of the Habeas Corpus was deemed sufficient. But what was the principle of those rebellions? It was a contention of rival royalties. The remedies then applied were commensurate with the case; but it did not apply to the parties. of the present day, who wished that two branches of the legislature should not exist at all, and the third be founded on a different basis.-The hon. gentleman then alluded to certain prosecutions, and used as an argument against the necessity of new laws, that the old ones were not carried into execution. He would tell the hon. gentleman what he conceived to be the principle of the constitution; the constitution did not aim at perfection, farther than could with probability be attained; it endeavoured to guard against the danger that might occur from the generality of the terms used in framing any law; and, to prevent the chance of doing mischief, in removing an existing mischief. This he took to be the foundation of that principle of the English constitution, that justice should be administered in mercy. And it was as much a breach of the law to apply the letter of the law against its spirit, as to inflict punishment without the authority of any law at all; and hence flowed another principle of the constitution, that of applying, from time to time, to the legislature to suit the exigency of cir[VOL. XXXIV.]

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cumstances just as they arose. So he said with respect to prosecutions, being perfectly persuaded that one object of those men was, to destroy the liberty of the press by means of licentiousness. With that conviction on his mind, he should not do his duty, if he neglected to exercise the authority which the law had vested in him. In his situation as attorney general, he had such a bundle of papers in his possession, that he should be ashamed it were publicly known such had been the produce of the presses of this kingdom. But he could not go to the shops of obscure booksellers, in little alleys, and exercise a different law against them than what was put in force against the more extensive trader.-But the hon. gentleman had argued, that the laws were strong enough: that would best appear; by a review of the four preceding yearswhen the Constitutional Society assumed a new character, when it enlisted and in-. corporated with itself the Corresponding Society, whose affiliated branches had debauched half the great towns in the kingdom. Though the objects which they pursued could not perhaps be made treason by the letter of the law, yet he felt no hesitation in now declaring, that from the facts then known, they warranted an indictment of high treason to be preferred against them, to call upon them for an explanation in order to qualify their acts, which, upon the face of them, appeared so very questionable. Supposing that the whole of the evidence which the House was now in possession of, had then been known, whole bodies of men could not be indicted for high treason; and therefore would it not be better policy, instead of pursuing with the severity of the law, to absolve the individuals and dissolve the societies, and thus prevent the necessity of extreme rigor? After the trials of 1794, several meetings took place in the neighbourhood of London, calculated not only to disturb the public peace, but to rob the poor labourer of a portion of his earnings, to support the traitorous purposes of the chiefs and leaders. By the law, as it then stood, they might unquestionably have been punished; but was it not better done, by the bill passed in parliament, to prevent those meetings? thus precluding the recurrence of the mischief, at the same time that it secured the freedom of every meeting for good or constitutional purposes.-But how could the law be applied to secret meetings, [3 S]

when the members were bound by oath not to give evidence against each other? Was it not, therefore, rather more desirable to apply new laws, than to bring forwards useless prosecutions?-The hon. gentleman had alluded to the suspension of the Habeas-Corpus act at former periods; but what would he say if the same course had been followed as in the periods to which he alluded; if he had informed himself of the extent of the numbers put in confinement, and never brought to any trial? If he had considered that point, he must have confessed that the present administration had conducted themselves with tenfold lenity compared with those periods. Was it not far better to effect this measure by the lenient measures adopted than by the forfeiture of lives, and the imposition of rigorous penalties? All agreed that the object of these societies were, to aid the influence of French principles, and therefore their dissolution was the great point to be effected.-The hon. gentleman mentioned the law which prohibited persons from going to France; but it was notorious that many persons had gone to France; that they carried on their correspondence with this country; and, in fact, it was not to be supposed that an act of parliament could have the power of preventing men from getting into a boat and sailing for France, if they were determined so to do. It was now a pretty notorious fact, that Mr. O'Connor had been guilty of high treason; but would it be severe to pass a law requiring him to quit his former connexion rather than to subject him to the penalties of the existing law?—He next came to that part which related to public debating societies. When the last bills upon the subject were brought forward, some of his tradesmen asked him, if he really meant to support a bill which would prevent them from drinking a social bowl together? Such an idea was never entertained; but the law has guarded that, under the pretence of instruction, those whose habits of life could not qualify them for such investigations, should not be seduced from the path of morality and religion. He would only request that gentlemen would to-morrow observe what subjects were announced in their bills for discussion, in order to determine whether they ought not to be put under some regulation. He would not know enter into the regulations of the newspaper bill; but to see the benefits which had resulted

from that measure, he only requested gentlemen to compare newspapers now, with what they were twelve months ago. Public and individual character was much more respected, and the necessity of a farther extension rested simply on this ground. An author publishes a libel, to which he affixes his name: the Corresponding Society immediately publish a new edition on cheap paper, which they circulate with unremitting industry. To this edition there is no publisher's name, nor any means of tracing the publication. It came, then, simply to this proposition, whether under some penalty they should be bound to tell who were the authors or publishers?

Mr. Abbot said, he differed so widely from the hon. member in thinking that the laws, as they stood at present, were sufficiently strong for the exigencies of the times, that he conceived the measures would have been still more complete, if they had extended to another object which was strikingly apparent upon the face of the present report, he agreed entirely with the chancellor of the exchequer, that the new forms and shapes which the dangers of the present times had assumed would unquestionably require that we should encounter them with new arms, and defend ourselves by new laws; but he thought that parliament would also do wisely in looking back to the policy of former times, and giving fresh force to those laws which our ancestors had considered to be indispensable to the public safety. Amongst the dangers of the present times we find it distinctly reported, not only that treasonable practices have been plotting by persons of mean note and desperate fortunes, but that, "in some degree they have received the countenance and pecuniary aid of persons of a higher situation in life:" and it was most manifest, that all treasons must derive much of their mischievous force and effect from the countenance and aid of such leaders. That so it was recently found in Ireland, so it had been notoriously in the beginnings of the revolution in France, that so it has been in all times, the history of all countries abundantly proves; and it may be taken as incontestably true, that wherever there is such a relaxation of the laws as encourages such leaders to show themselves openly, it is the final warning of destruction to the government-it is the handwriting upon the wall, and all who look upon it must tremble--To check traitors