Mr. T. R. Mulvany.

15 Dec. 1891.

Wayleaves. Expropriation of land.

Communal

taxes.

ncome Tax, 891.

wayleave shall be granted, and the landowner does not agree to that, then he has the right of appeal to the Minister of Public Works, and if the minister decides that the wayleave shall be granted, the extra expense of that appeal must be borne by the landowner. Then, if he will not take the sum at which the experts have valued the land, the landowner has still the right to go to the law courts with it, and to get a judicial decision as to the value.

19,027. Is the law the same with respect to the wayleaves inside the concession as to those outside the concession, or is there a difference in the law, as far as you know?-The law is the same, even if there is a railroad to be reached at a distance outside the concession, they have still the power to expropriate the necessary land for that purpose.

19,028. Inside the concession the concessionnaire wants to make shafts, or to put up buildings, or to have houses for the workmen, and outside the concession he would want to take a railroad to connect his mine with a neighbouring railroad; would the same law be applicable to both these cases?— It would. The railways in Germany being State railways, they have to agree with the railway fiscus, which comes in then and gives a decision.

19,029. That is to say, the railway authorities ?— Yes.

19,030. I presume it would be very similar to the law for Belgium which M. Hubert has been explaining to us this morning, namely, that the only locus standi, the only power, the courts would have would be to settle the amount of compensation ?-Exactly.

19,031. They would not have any power of deciding upon the question of whether the land should or should not be taken ?---No.

19,032. That is decided by whom? That is decided by the minister.

19,033. (Mr. Jamieson.) Who are the experts you have mentioned, are they sworn experts, or may they be selected anywhere ?-They are sworn experts. I have never heard of a case going into the courts; the valuation is generally so made that the landowner I would have no chance if he went to law on the subject; he would not get anything more out of it.

19,034. Do they give double the value, the same as they do in Belgium ?-There is no fixed rule, as far as I know. In the mining districts the land has a much higher value in the market for purchase than the agricultural value.

19,035. As a matter of fact, they get higher than the agricultural value?—Yes, much higher; sometimes three or four times the agricultural value. The agricultural value in many parts of Westphalia and Germany is very low.

19,036. Do you know whether the mines are exempted from any other taxes in consideration of the 2 per cent. impost?-No, they are not exempted from any other taxes.

19,037. Do know whether they have to bear any you communal or other tax in addition to those payable in respect of other property?—Yes.

19,038. They have ?-Yes.

19,039. Are they heavy ?-The communal taxes are, in many cases, very heavy. They depend upon the requirements of the community of the district, for provision for the poor-poor rates-churches, schools, and roads, and repairs. In Westphalia, the rates are generally about 300 per cent., and, in some cases, 400 per cent. of the Government income tax. The Government income tax is the basis of all the taxes on the income.

19,040. Do you mean that the mines have to pay some of these communal taxes when other properties have not to pay them?-No; all industrial undertakings have to pay the communal taxes.

19,041. Then the mines do not have any special taxes to pay ?-No, not in that respect.

19,042. Now, as regards the income tax, have the mines to pay any special income tax ?-Under the Law of 1891, which comes into force on the 1st of April

1892, there is a Government income tax to be levied which graduates from about 3rds per cent. up to 4 per cent. On an income of 501. a year, say, it is about rds per cent., and then there is a rising scale up to 4 per cent.-4 per cent. being the highest rate. A colliery would have to pay 4 per cent., not only upon the net profits, but upon the moneys applied out of profits, to the development and improvement of the concession.

19,043. Taking the case of a company; would the shareholders in a company have, in addition, to pay the same income tax upon the money they receive from the colliery ?-Yes; the individual shareholder has to pay on his proportion, under this new law, at the same rate, so that, in the case of a shareholder receiving a dividend of 1,000l. a year, we will say, out of a company which divided 5,000l. a year profit altogether, there would be a double tax altogether of 8 per cent. on the money which goes to the State.

19,044. There would be, in point of fact, 8 per cent. taken on the profits of the mine?—Yes.

19,045. Would that be 8 per cent. on the gross ?— The shareholder would have to pay 4 per cent. on the dividend, and the colliery would have to pay 4 per cent. on the gross profit.

19,046. That would be considerably more than 8 per cent. on the net profits?-Yes, it would be considerably more.

19,047. Because, as you have explained, the tax upon the gross profits includes expenditure made upon the mines which would be in the nature of capital expenditure? Yes.

19,048. Is the same tax required to be paid by a cotton factory, for example?-Every industrial undertaking; every commercial undertaking under this new law is subject to these taxes.

19,049. These taxes will be very heavy upon commerce and trade in general?-They will be very heavy. The income of a concern and the income of an individual have to be declared, and whoever makes a false declaration is liable to a very heavy fine. It is a tremendous new burden that is laid upon the industry of Germany.

19,050. Can you tell us how much the communal Communal taxes come to ?-I can ascertain that; but I have not taxes. got the material at hand. It varies in every part of the district. Take the case of Düsseldorf, where I reside; the communal taxes there are about 215 per cent. of the State income tax. In the more industrial parts of the district, strange to say, the rates are even higher; they are 350 per cent., and, in some cases, 400 per cent.

19,051. (Sir William Lewis.) Of the Imperial taxes?--Yes.

19,052. (Chairman.) Are they all based upon the Imperial income tax ?-Yes; all communnal income taxes are. Then, in addition to that, there is the tax on lands and buildings; that is a tax on the cadastral valuation.

19,053. Can you tell us how many concessions Number of have been granted, and how many are not now being concessions worked, and from what causes ?-I have not been granted. able to ascertain the number of concessions, which, of course, is very large. Each concession is what is called a "feld" or field of either 25,000 square lachters or 500,000 square lachters. These fields are often amalgamated or united into one concern. Five, or six, or ten, or any unlimited number of fields are united together into one, and that constitutes the working field of a colliery. The number of working companies in Westphalia, I have given in my proof, I think, as 170. They are separate groups of collieries, with large concessions, having united fields. Great numbers of them have been again amalgamated within the last few years by a fusion of companies, so that the number of companies is becoming reduced. There are some cases where one company has 10 or 12 collieries united together. By that means the great competition in the country between the various collieries has been very much reduced, and the price

of coal has been kept up. Of course, the number of concessions can be ascertained.

19,054. Has the tendency been to amalgamate ?— Yes, the tendency has been to amalgamate in the last few years.

19,055. Can you tell us what additional charge was put upon the mine owners by the law of compulsory insurance of labour which was passed in 1890 ?— As near as I can ascertain it is about a farthing per ton. The old insurance law, called the "Knappschaft," existed, and under it there was a certain insurance against accident and death, so that this new tax upon collieries does not represent the full burden that it does to other concerns which had no such insurance previous to this.

19,056. Has any experience been obtained as to the practical effect of the mining laws in Prussia and Saxony on the development of industry; in the first place, is there any considerable amount of coal raised in Saxony --The amount of coal raised in Saxony is very much smaller than the amount raised in Prussia. The production of mineral coal in Saxony is only about 4,234,000 tons, against 67,000,000, the produce of all Germany. The Dortmund district alone produced 33,855,000 tons in the year 1889.

19,057. So that, in reality, there is no very useful comparison to be made between the effect of the laws in the two parts of Germany?-No. I have just been speaking of the mineral coal, but I may remind you that there is a considerable amount of lignite coal produced in Saxony.

19,058. The Commissioners would like some further explanation of Table I. which you sent us. (See Appendix C. XII.) You sent us an extract from a report of a leading coal company in Westphalia. We should like to know which of the items are compulsory, and which not. The first item is 'mining, land, building, and trade taxes," those, I presume are compulsory ?-Yes.

66

19,059. "Community taxes"?-Those are compulsory.

19,060. "Miners' funds taxes, including workmen's contributions" ?-Those are compulsory.

19,061. "Contributions to Miners' Trade Association"?--Those are compulsory.

19,062. "Contributions to Chamber of Commerce"? -Those are compulsory.

to Miners' Association

19,063. "Contributions funds"?-Those are compulsory.

19,064. "Contributions to Association for the Protection of Mine Owners' Interests," those, I presume, are not compulsory ?-Those are voluntary.

19,065. (Mr. Forster.) Then everything in that table is compulsory, except item 7?—Yes.

19,066. (Chairman.) And that is a trifle ?-That is a very small thing.

19,067. You have given the amount in marks—a mark is a shilling, I believe?—Yes.

19,068. Therefore the result would be that, in 1890, on the coal sold in the colliery, these charges would come to something over 6d. a ton, 0.56 marks?— Yes.

19,069. (Mr. Forster.) The average for the four years, from 1887 to 1890, is 0'48 marks?—Yes. Then there comes, in addition to that, the new law, providing against infirmity and old age, and the income tax.

19,070. (Chairman.) Does the calculation in your table, No. 1, not include the new income tax ?—No, it does not include the new law providing protection against old age and infirmity. That is only just coming into force.

19,071. The general opinion expressed by you in the report which you were good enough to send us, was, that the alteration of the law in Germany, of 1865, had a very favourable effect upon the development of the coal industry of Germany? That is so.

19,072. But that, before, there were great restrictions, and that it has opened out a field of speculation and industry, with excellent effect?-That is so. This improvement has been attributed by some people

to the result of the last war, which, in uniting Germany, gave a stimulus and impetus to business and trade. But, before that war took place, there was a great improvement-the improvement began immediately after the Law of 1865.

Mr. T. R. Mulvany.

15 Dec. 1891.

Development 19,073. I gather from your report that in old times of the mining there was a great deal more interference with the industry. working and management of the mines on the part of the administration than was quite desirable?—Yes. 19,074. Or than was wise?-There was a great deal of interference.

19,075. But that has been very much removed of late years?-One of the main objects of that law was to remove that.

19,076. And they have introduced better processes of mining from England?-Yes, they have obtained a great deal of information from England.

19,077. Both privately and by means of Government engineers?—Yes; Government engineers were sent over to England on tours of instruction.

19,078. What proportion of collieries in Germany Collieries are worked directly by the State?-There is the worked by the Saarbrücken district and Ibbenbüren. State.

19,079. Is the output very large ?-Westphalia represents the largest production of all. Westphalia represents in round numbers 35,000,000 tons out of the whole production for the year 1890 of 70,000,000

tons.

19,080. You are speaking of all collieries, including those worked by private enterprise ?-Yes. I do not exactly remember the figure for Saarbrücken.

19,081. Can you tell us whether the working of the collieries by the State is considered to be a success in Germany?-A success for the State, or in the general interest?

19,082. One way or the other, whether the State makes a considerable profit ?-The State makes a profit from it, but I doubt whether the profit is equal to the profit which private companies could make of it. It is considered to be an advantage that the State should have at least some collieries which would be worked as models, as it were, for the cthers to copy. Of course, the organisation, the system, and the technical arrangements at the State collieries are considered to be samples and models for private parties to follow. But the general feeling in the country is against State management. Private owners of coal mines consider that it is unfair that the State should compete with them in the production of coal. There is a certain party in Germany who, during the 10 years of depression in trade, advocated the purchase of all the collieries in Germany by the State, but they do not find any support, and the genera! feeling is, that it is the duty of the Government to govern, and not to manage industrial under takings.

19,083. I believe the concession of a right to mine Property in in Germany is the same as it is in France and in concession. Belgium, and places a real property in the hands of the concessionnaire ?-Yes, it is a real estate-it is freehold property.

19,084. Practically, is it ever resumed by the State?-Practically, no.

19,085. Is it constantly sold in the market?—Yes, Sale of in good times like those of the last two or three years concessions. there have been concessions sold and companies amalgamated-of course at an increased value-at an advantage to the former owners. In bad times there is a want of enterprise, and there is no inclination to buy concessions.

19,086. Have you seen a memorandum which one of the members of the Commission has prepared, giving a summary of the mining law in Germany?Yes. (See Final Report, Appendix VIII.)

19,087. Have you any observations to make upon Imperial that paper?-I think the summary in general terms taxation. expresses the state of the law in Germany fairly well. I do not see that there is much to alter in it. There is one point, where the taxation of the "output" is spoken of, it is not the output, it is the actual vend in each case which is taxed.

19,090. What do you mean by the consumption of the mine? The consumption of the mine for boiler purposes is not taxed; the word used in Germany is "absatz," and absatz means what is disposed of. The returns are made out at the collieries by sworn officials, colliery clerks who are sworn, and who have to make quarterly returns showing exactly the amount of the coal which has been drawn, and what has become of it, and only that portion that is used in the way I have described is liable to the duty of 2 per cent.

19,091-2. Do you know the relative increase in the production of coal in Saxony and Germany during the last 8, or 10, or 20 years ?—No; I have not gone into that, and I have not got the particulars of that over a long period of time. The increase in Germany in the Westphalian district, for instance, I gave.

19,093-4. Now the amount of these taxes seemed to be about 5 8d. per ton before the new income tax was put on the insurance ?—Yes.

19,095. Do you think that that amount of tax has tended to retard the development of the mining industry in Germany? - The new income tax is only now coming into force.

19,096. It is independent of that figure 5.8d. You do not think that that would retard the industry at all? It was felt to be very severe during the depressed state of trade, but it did not retard, to any material extent, the development of the industry or the production of the coal.

19,097. The experiments that you speak of in your memorandum were rather impediments in the way of getting concessions, and in connexion with the workmen's ladders and shafts, and things of that sort? Yes, in connexion with the supervision of the mines. 19,098. They have really nothing to do with the amount of money paid to the Government?—No, I do not think the increase in the taxes has materially retarded the development of the industry.

19,099. Have you any idea what the new Income Tax would amount to per ton?-It would amount to 4 per cent. on the profits.

19,100. You inform us in Table I. (Appendix C. XII.) that the contribution for mining land, building, and trade taxes, comes altogether to 228,000 marks: have you any idea what proportion of that is the Government tax ?-I do not exactly know what amount that is; it is a large amount.

19,101. Does this item include the 2 per cent. ?The mining tax, of course, is the 2 per cent.

19,102. Then you do not know what proportion of those marks went for mining and what proportion for land, what proportion for building, and what proportion for trade taxes?-No; I have not got the material here to answer that question, but I can easily ascertain that. (See Statement following Table I., Appendix C. XII.)

19,103. I think it would be of importance, because then we can see what the effect of the new tax would be?-1 will get it for you.

-

19,104. Do you mean that, in addition to the 4 per cent. tax paid by the mine itself, dividends are taxed absolutely? They are taxed to the same amount. If there is a dividend up to 1,0007., the average is about 3 per cent., perhaps, but above 1,000l. the rate of taxation is 4 per cent.

19,105. Then are those taxes that you have described paid equally by the ordinary concessionnaire

and by those who have the old leases under the Government?-There are hardly any leases. I do not know of any leases existing in Germany. The coal is all worked by the owners, and collieries are seldom let or sublet.

19,106. Is a concession ever worked by itself, Amalgamation without amalgamating with other concessions?-Not of concessions. in any deep-lying coals.

19,107. The concessions are not large enough to amalgamate?—Not large enough to be worked without amalgamation, only where the coal lies close to the surface, of course, would it pay to work 400 or 500

acres.

19,108. In point of fact, I suppose, the original concessionnaires never work the mine themselves ?Very seldom; it is exceptional where they do. 19,109. Several concessionnaires, I suppose, usually join together and form companies?—Yes. 19,110. They acquire neighbouring concessions as well, I suppose, buying them up ?-Yes; as a general rule the concessionnaire sells direct to a capitalist who will form a company to work the concession.

19,111. After those companies are formed, I suppose the shares are in the market like those of our ordinary companies?—Yes; there are two classes of companies. First, there is the partnership company, which is limited to 1,000 shares. Under the old partnership system it was unlimited liability, but now it is limited; there are some even still existing which are unlimited. The other class of company is similar to the English joint stock company; the shares are on the market and they are quoted every day on the Bourse, and very large transactions are done in the shares now.

19,112. I suppose they have gone up considerably of late years? They went up 150 per cent. and 200 per cent.

19,113. In point of fact, the concessionnaire, I assume, from what you say, generally takes the concession and disposes of it without making a profit ?— No, unless in bad times, when he is forced to sell because he has spent some inoney on it, and he is in difficulties; then, of course, he sells for whatever he can get.

Sale of concessions and formation of companies.

19,114. Has he any power of giving up his con- Powers of cession?I do not know of any power of doing surrender. that, unless to let his right lapse.

19,115. Must he hold his concession, and pay Taxes on certain fixed taxes?-There are no taxes on it unless concessions unworked. he commences to work.

19,116. It is not heavily taxed?-No, a mere nothing. The expense of acquiring a concession is merely the stamp duty of 1s. 6d., I think, on registry, and some trifling expenses in addition.

to withdraw concessions.

19,117. I suppose the Government have power to Right of take the concession away from him in certain cases? Government They have power to take the concession from away him where, in the general interest and welfare of the public, they deem it necessary that the mine should be worked, and it is not worked. If the nation is losing money by its not being worked, the Government have a right to take up the concession, but there is not a case that I have ever heard of, upon record, and I have been informed by the Oberbergamt at Halle that they have never known of a case.

19,118. So that, practically, it is a dead letter?— Practically, it is not exercised; it is a dead letter. 19,119. Is there much ground now in your dis- Coal in the trict, the Dortmund district, which can be taken Dortmund up? Is there much room for coal to be taken up? district. 19,120. Is there much coal proved ?--Yes, there is a considerable extent of coal to the north which lies at great depths.

19,121. At great depths ?-Yes.

19,122. Not perhaps workable whilst the shallower mines are being worked?-No; the expense of working the deep mines is very great.

19,123. The coal is sent, in some cases, considerable distances by railway, is it not?—Yes.

19,124. What is the greatest distance you know of? Some coal is sent to Hamburg; then there is

coal sent to Berlin, and to Northern Italy, and also to Paris and Antwerp and the Dutch ports; there is a very large quantity of coal sent to Holland.

19,125. They are all State railways, are they not, to the German frontier?-They are all State railways now, except that there are one or two short connecting lines, still in the hands of private companies, but not on the main routes to sea ports.

19,126. Could you give us any idea what the carriage on these railways is per ton per mile?—I have not gone into that question, but I should think it is considerably under halfpenny per ton. There is a differential tariff. For the short distances the rate per mile is much higher than for longer distances, and there are certain advantages given for coal which is exported from Hamburg or any of the other ports, there is a drawback given on the freight, to encourage the export, but the export trade is not extensive.

19,127. There is a good deal of coal sent to Hamburg itself, I suppose?-Yes, there is a very large amount.

19,128. You do not know what the railway rate is to there, do you?—I think it is 6s. a ton.

19,129. Six marks a ton?—Yes, and 5 marks 40, I think it is, for export.

19,130. (Sir William Lewis.) From where ? From the middle of the Westphalian district; from Dortmund and Essen, they are the main points.*

19,131. (Mr. Forster.) I think you said there was no difficulty about getting a railway out beyond your concession if it was wanted ?-That is so.

19,132. Is there any difficulty about getting your road underground? Supposing there were two concessions with a piece between, would it be possible to get a road from one to the other?-And this piece between belonged to another party?

19,133. Yes?-There would be no difficulty in getting through, that is if it was deemed to be absolutely necessary for the safety of the mine to get a

connexion.

19,134. I was not speaking of questions of safety; I am referring to questions of trade, of carriage, of advantage? There, I think, there would be a difficulty. The Mining Council decides as to whether any connexion can be made underground in any way, or whether what they call auxiliary works should be made in another mine, or connexions made. The Mining Board decide absolutely to the exclusion of any other court. Under the law of two shafts being compulsory, coal companies, with adjoining collieries, have agreed amongst themselves, and they have made connexions to avoid the expense of sinking so many shafts for the purposes of ventilation.

19,135. Are they allowed to do that?-They are. 19,136. They pay nothing to the State for that, I presume? No.

19,137. I believe a man who wishes to be a concessionnaire can search on his own land at any time? -Yes, he can search there at any time.

19,138. Does he require leave from the State to prove for minerals?—He must give notice of it.

19,139. After he has found the mineral?-When he has found it; but on his own land he can search without leave from the Government.

19,140. Can he search another person's land ?——No; not without the consent of the owner.

19,141. I mean, supposing the owner is not willing, will the Government give him leave?-The Government will give him leave. The land for the purpose can be expropriated, and if it is used for more than three years the landowner has the power to demand that the party making the search shall purchase the land, and that is arbitrated in the same way as it would be for roads, railways, or for any colliery purpose.

*Note.--Mr. Mulvany subsequently wrote to say that the freights for coal from the Westphalian district are, according to his information, about the following:

To Berlin

Mark 0.0272 per ton and kilometre. 0.1551 0.2236

,, Hamburg

Bremen

(That is per ton of 2,000 kilogrammes.)

Mr. T. R Mulvany.

15 Dec. 1891.

19,142. When that man has discovered minerals, he has to give notice I suppose to some official ?—He has to give notice to the mining inspector directly he touches a seam of coal, or touches a mineral. He reports it to the mining inspector, and the mining Right of inspector has to be present to watch the boring search. operations through the seams, so as to be able to take a protocol of the thickness of the seam.

19,143. After that is proved, there is no chance of anyone getting it but the discoverer, I suppose ?—No, it belongs to the first discoverer of the mine who has proved it. It is registered in the mining books, and it is his absolute property.

19,144. (Sir William Lewis.) Will you tell us Wages and what proportion the wages bear to the total cost of cost of progetting the coal in, say, the Westphalian district ?—duction. I have not gone into the question of the cost of production, but, as a general rule, it is taken to be about one-half.

19,145. One-half ?-I should think it has been so, but since the last strike it has very considerably increased.

19,146. I do not see by your table, if I understand it aright, that you give the per-centages which these charges, by way of taxes, bear to the total cost of getting the coal?-In table No. 1, I think you will find it is given. (Appendix C. XII.)

19,147. The per-centage that it bears to the actual cost is what I want to find ?-The per-centage is given on the coal sold, on the value of the coal, on the total gross profit, and on the total net profit.

19,148. And you would have to take the one out of the other in order to arrive at what I want?-It has not been worked out. It was not given in the report that I took it from. This table is simply copied from a report.

19,149. (Mr. Forster.) Look at page 3 of the Summary; the working cost there is deduced in per-centages?-It gives, not the per-centage, but the actual working cost.

19,150. (Sir William Lewis.) I assume that you Comparison know the general arrangements for letting mines in between your district; comparing the average royalty n his royalties in country as against the various taxes which are set England and Germany. forth in your table No. 1 (Appendix C. XII.) as being chargeable upon coal, do you consider that the taxes are more or less than the average royalty in this country?-I do not know much what the royalties here are. At one time I heard that they were 1s. and 1s. 6d. a ton; are they not so in some cases?

19,151. Assuming that they were 6d., would that be higher or lower than the average charges on the collieries in your district?-I should think it would be about the same. I fancy under the new law that the German rates will be higher than what I suppose to be the average of the royalties in England.

19,152. They will be higher than half a mark per tou ?—Yes.

19,153. (Mr. Jamieson.) You spoke of experts Valuation of being employed in cases where the concessionnaire expropriated either desired to extend his boundaries or to make a land by railway ?—Yes.

19,154. How are these experts selected ?-They are selected as men who have got a practical knowledge of the value of the land and of all local circumstances.

19,155. Is anyone selected or is there a college of experts from whom the concessionnaire must select? -He may select anyone, I believe. I am not aware of there being a college.

experts.

19,156. Are there no qualified or sworn experts ? The State railways, for instance, have their own special experts, men whom they swear in for valuing the land. These men are very often selected in cases like that because they happen to have a knowledge of the local circumstances. They are sworn experts. 19,157. Before the introduction of the new law of Compensation insurance, what was the liability of the concessionnaire funds. towards the men working the mine-the workmen— in case of accident?-Before the introduction of the new law he was obliged, in case of accident, to

contribute, through the Knappschaftsverein, to an association for the protection of the interests of the workman. They provided the necessary funds to support him, perhaps less than half his ordinary wages, and a good deal es than that during the time he was invalided from an accident.

19,158. Did the coalowners pay some voluntary contribution to the association ?-That was compulsory.

19,159. That is also compulsory under the new Act, is it not?-Yes. It has taken now a new form, and the old Knappschaftsverein will be merged into this new form.

19,160. As regards the expense, will that add materially to the cost?-No; under the new law, so far as I can ascertain, it amounts to perhaps a farthing a ton more than under the former law.

19,161. They will contribute to the more recent assessment for old age?-That is the new law that I have been speaking of.

19,162. Will that make a material difference ?Yes, about a farthing a ton.

19,163. I understand that in that district of Germany there is no compulsory poor law requiring the poor to be supported ?-There is no poor law exactly similar to the poor law in England, each community is bound to provide for its own poor.

19,164. How?-It is for that purpose that the communities levy taxes on the industrial undertakings. 19,165. Did they levy taxes upon mines before this new law?-Yes.

19,166. So that the new law there again is only an addition to a previous assessment?-Yes; but all other undertakings, ironworks, cotton mills, and all other classes of commercial undertakings have now come under an entirely new burden.

19,167. Have you any idea what the extent of the new impost is on the industry as compared with what was formerly paid by the collieries?-As I understand, it is about a farthing a ton extra.

19,168. I understood you to say that was for accidents?-For infirmity and accidents.

19,169. For both ?--Yes.

19,170. And that farthing a ton is the excess of cost caused by the new law over the old ?-That is, so far as the present experience goes; but if they find that that amount will not be sufficient, if any serious accident occurs by which a number of lives are lost, the reserve fund may be so much exhausted that they may be obliged to increase the rate. The rate is not absolutely fixed, it varies according to the circumstances.

19,171. (Mr. Burt.) You mentioned Westphalia as the great coal producing district of Germany, and I think you said that the total coal produce last year was about 35,000,000 tons ?-Yes, I think so.

19,172. Would that be about half the total coal produce of Germany ?—The total produce of Germany is about 70,000,000 tons.

19,173. Has Westphalia developed very much of late years? Yes, it has developed immensely. In 1850 the production in Westphalia, as I have given it in my table, was about 2,000,000 tons only, and it is now 35,000,000 tons.

19,174. So that there has been a great increase during that time?—Yes.

19,175. Do you know what are the hours worked underground by the miners of Westphalia? - In Westphalia they vary; there is no fixed rule or law on the subject of the working hours, though the working classes, are trying for it in Westphalia; but at most of the collieries, I think, the rule will be found to be eight hours work, not taking into consideration the time occupied in descending and ascending. At some of the collieries, however, the eight hours includes the time of descending the pit and ascending, In other parts of Germany there are nine hours, 10 hours, and even 12 hours still existing.

19,176. Can you state what are the wages of the underground men?-The wages in Saarbrücken, I think, are about the highest, and the wages in West

phalia may be taken, I suppose, at an average of a
little over 3s., taking a number of years.
19,177. (Professor Munro.) You mean per day?—--
Yes.

19,178. (Mr. Burt.) Is that the average wage of the coal getters, the coal hewers ?-That is the average of all hands.

19,179. Including everybody?—Yes. Comparison 19,180. You have mentioned that, assuming the between royalty in this country is 6d. per ton, in Germany it royalties in would be about the same; you did not mean the actual England and Germany. royalty paid, but the total taxes, did you not?-The total taxes.

19,181. And the total taxes in Germany would Imperial and include what?-The 2 per cent. to the State for the trade taxes. supervision of the working of the mines, the community taxes, all the workmen's taxes, the contribution to the Chamber of Commerce, in fact, all the taxes that are given in my table No. 1, except the seventh. 19,182. The farthing per ton that you mentioned a short time ago you think would cover the total payment of the coalowner towards the Government and the pension ?-Yes, the total over and above what he already pays towards insurance pensions. In many cases the colliery owners, in addition to that, contribute voluntarily to the special funds attached to their own collieries. In the case of one particular colliery the colliery owners give 3007. a year, 6,000 marks, of their own free will.

19,183. And will they continue to give that, quite independent of the amount imposed?-Quite independent of the other amount, yes.

19,184. (Mr. Robertson.) Is your table No. 1 representative of the payments made at the collieries throughout Germany?-No, it only applies to one particular company. (Appendix C. XII.)

19,185. Do many companies pay according to this table?—It is taken as a fair sample; it is one of the largest companies, having three large collieries. Of course, it cannot be taken as giving an exact average but the average of the whole district can be ascertained.

19,186. Would you say that many collieries do not pay some of these items ?-In the Rhenish Westphalian collieries they all pay these taxes.

19,187. What is the fourth item meant to indicate, "Contributions to Miners' Trade Association"; what kind of association is that; for what purpose is it formed?-That is an association, which was formed years ago, by which the miners' interests were to be protected, and also to provide a fund in cases of accidents.

19,188. It is not a miners' trade union, as the term is understood in this country?—No.

19,189. Was the object of its formation to relieve the employers of a burden that might suddenly befall them in the case of an accident?-It was originally an association formed by the mine owners amongst themselves; then it was taken over, under the Law of 1865, directly under Government control.

19,190. And the fund is used for the purpose of relief in case of accidents ?--Yes.

19,191. Then the sixth item, "Contributions to Mining Association funds," what is that meant to indicate?-The Berggewerkochaftskasse; that is also an older fund, that was established by the private companies.

19,192. For what purposes?-The Knappschaftsverein is a general fund for the whole district, and the Berggewerkochaftskasse is formed by the private companies; and these were, practically speaking, amalgamated and put under Government control.

19,193. Then, as a matter of fact, these are colliery owners' protection societies in funds?-But the funds have to be all applied merely for the benefit of the workmen.

19,194. In relieving the employers of burdens that would probably fall upon them under the existing law in some other way; is that so ?--Originally it was not so. Under the law under which companies were made liable for all accidents, it became, of course, a