awakening the fears, or exciting the jealousy of the other. Whatever gentlemen may think of the abstract rights of the petitioners, or of the expediency of complying with the prayer of their petition, I am sure they will agree with me in thinking, that the chance of extinguishing all those animosities which have unfortunately prevailed, and of producing that perfect union which we all wish, must depend upon the combination of circumstances under which the measure is brought forward. Not having in any degree changed my opinion upon this subject, regarding it in the same point of view I did then, and retaining the same feelings, I must say that at the present moment I think I see little chance, I should rather say I see no chance, of its being carried at all, certainly not in that way which I meant, and in which way only I think it can be productive of real advantage to the petitioners, or of benefit to the state, I mean as a measure of peace and conciliation.

If then, Sir, the question is not now to be carried, I think that to agitate it, under such circumstances, will only tend to revive those dissentions which we wish to extinguish, to awaken all that warmth and acrimony of discussion which has heretofore prevailed, and to excite those hopes, which, if they are to be disappointed, may be productive of the greatest mischief. As to the chance of carrying the question at present with general concurrence, of gratifying the catholics without offending the protestants, of confirming the affections of the one without raising the suspicions and exciting the fears of the other, not only in Ireland but in England, I confess there appears to me to be none. I lament it as much as any man can do. I lament that the impression which now prevails has taken place; many circumstances have combined to produce that impression, all of which are to be deplored. I ask any gentleman whether he does not believe, looking to the opinions of the members of the established church, of the nobility, of the men of property, of the middling and respectable classes of society-I ask him, whether he does not believe, looking at the sentiments of the mass of the protestants of this country and of Ireland, that there is the greatest repugnance to this measure, and that even if it could now be carried, so far

from producing conciliation and union, it would tend, on the contrary, to disappoint all the prospects of advantage which under other circumstances would be derived from it? Even those gentlemen who have argued the most strongly in favour of this measure have candidly confessed, that, in the present state of men's minds, it is not likely to be carried. I am sure I shall not be contradicted when I say, that ever since the union this subject has in a very considerable degree attracted public attention, and that of late, notwithstanding the other events which have occupied the public mind, it has been the subject of much conversation both in public and private, particularly since the catholic petition has been presented, and since the honourable gentleman has given notice of his present motion; and I should disguise my real sentiments if I did not say that at present the prevailing sentiment is strongly against this measure: what circumstances may occur to overcome that sentiment it is not for me to predict or conjecture.

In speaking of the probability of carrying this question at this time, I cannot but advert to what fell from the honourable gentle. man who opened the debate this day respecting the decision which took place last night in another place. I know perfectly well that no man can mention the decision of another branch of the legislature, for the purpose of influencing, much less of controlling, the decision of this house. I know there are many instances where differences of opinion have prevailed between this and the other house of parliament, in which the sentiments of this house, in concurrence with the public opinion properly expressed, have ultimately prevailed. I am as far as any man, Sir, from wishing not to hold high the undoubted privileges of this house; but if I am right in my general view of this subject, I think the determination to which I am alluding ought not to be laid out of our consideration, because it goes to the very essence of the measure itself, I mean as far as relates to the practical advantages that are to be derived from it. Supposing, then, that we were all agreed as to the propriety of granting the prayer of this petition, is it not our duty to consider what bad effects might be produced by the

marked difference which would then subsist between this house and the other branch of the legislature upon this subject? If carried at all, it ought, as I have already stated, to be carried with general concurrence; and when an endeavour is made to carry a measure, the object of which is to conciliate one part of his Majesty's subjects, care must be taken not to shock the feelings of a much larger class of the community. Under such circumstances, when such an opinion has been given by another branch of the legislature, we are bound to take it into our consideration in deciding upon the line of conduct we ought to adopt, because this is a subject in which no man can act wisely or prudently who acts entirely from his own views, or his own feel. ings. It is his duty to his country, to the catholics, and to the community, to look at it in a combined point of view, to consider all the probable effects, which the carrying of it (if it were practi cable) with such a strong sentiment prevailing against it, or which the failing to carry it may produce. Upon this part of the subject there is one point on which I wish to say a few words.

It has been urged by some gentlemen, that we ought to go into a committee, whatever we may resolve to do at last; and some of the minor grievances under which the catholics are said to labour have been pointed out, upon which it is said there can be no difference of opinion on the propriety of granting them relief-such as the circumstance of catholics engaged in a military life coming over to this country, and who are thereby exposed to the operation of the test act, to which they are not at home. Another circumstance which has been mentioned is, that the catholics in the army are not only not to be allowed to have mass performed, but they are compelled to attend protestant worship. Sir, I contend that these points are much too unimportant to induce us to go into a committee upon a petition which embraces the whole of this im portant subject, and which excites the hopes and fears of all the subjects of the united kingdom. I again repeat, that I do lament that this subject has now been brought forward; I lament for the sake of the catholics themselves; I lament for the general interests of the country, that gentlemen have thought proper to agitate

this subject at this moment. That gentlemen have a perfect right to exercise their judgment upon this subject I do not deny; I do not complain of their conduct; I only lament that they have felt it their duty to bring it forward at this period, and under the present circumstances; when, if they were to succeed, the consequences would not be such as we all desire, and, if they fail, they may be such as we must all regret.

And now, Sir, let me ask the honourable gentleman, who has brought forward the present motion, and who fairly avows that his object is that every thing should be conceded to the catholics; let me ask the honourable gentlemen who supported the motion last night with such a splendour of eloquence, what effect this is likely to produce upon the catholics themselves? When the honourable member, or the honourable mover of the question, talks of the effect of disappointing hopes that have been raised, I trust they have over-rated and exaggerated it. But one of these gentlemen did state, that amongst the possible causes of a religious feeling having mixed and operated in the late rebellion, might be enumerated the hope held out by Lord Fitzwilliam, that the claims of the catholics would be taken into consideration. They allege the disappointment of that hope as one of the causes that might have tended to produce the rebellion. If that be their conviction, what must they think who wish to go into a committee upon the petition, and yet are of opinion that they still reserve to them selves the freedom of rejecting it altogether, or of rejecting it in its most important parts? I submit this to the consideration of the house shortly, but distinctly; it rests upon grounds so obvious and so strong, that it will be taking up your time unnecessarily, to debate upon them. I submit this with a wish that the measure when brought forward will be carried with a general concurrence. But the circumstances which have hitherto rendered it impossible for me to urge and press it, make it impossible for me to urge and press it now; feeling as I do, that to press it and to fail, or to press it and even carry it with such a strong opposition, are alternatives, both of them so mischievous, that it will be diffi

* Mr. Grattan.

cult to decide between them. Seeing, Sir, what are the opinions of the times, what is the situation of men's minds, and the sentiments of all descriptions and classes, of the other branch of the legislature, and even the prevailing opinion of this house, I feel that I should act contrary to a sense of my duty, and even inconsistently with the original ground upon which I thought the measure ought to be brought forward, if I countenanced it under the present circumstances, or if I hesitated in giving my decided negative to the house going into a committee.

MR. Whitbread, in pursuance of a notice he had given of a motion rela tive to the conduct of Mr. Pitt in advancing 40,000l. to Messrs. Boyd, Ben field, and Co. in 1796, this day moved the following resolutions :

Ist. "That in September 1796, Messrs. Boyd, Benfield, and Co. being then contractors for two loans in the progress of payment, did represent to the right honourable William Pitt and the right honourable Lord Viscount Melville their inability to make good an instalment, falling due on the 9th day of September 1796, on account of the general embarrassments at that time, affecting both public and private credit, and the particular line of conduct adopted at the bank of limiting their accommodations in the way of discount.",

2d. "That the right honourable William Pitt being impressed, as stated by him, with the belief of the importance and urgent necessity, with a view to essential public interests, of granting relief to the said Messrs Boyd, Benfield, and Co. for the purposes of making good the said instalment, and no other means suggesting themselves by which much public mischief might be prevented, and having understood from the right honourable Lord Viscount Melville, the treasurer of the navy, that the sum of 40,000l. which, together with other sums, had been issued from the exchequer, and placed to the credit of the said Lord Viscount Melville, at the bank of England, as treasurer of the navy, for navy services, might be spared without inconvenience, provided unquestionable securities were obtained for the repayment of the same, within a short period, did consent to the advance of the sum of 40,000% which had been