the king of Sardinia, a sum of 1,200,000. to the king of Prussia, and lately the loan of 4,600,000l., to the Emperor. But though on these occasions, they displayed all their stores of animated language, when they brought forward the situation of his royal brother, they prefaced what they had to propose with the expressions" an unpleasant task-an arduous undertaking sponsible for the expense incurred under their powers in support of the measure of their several departments, he highly ap-granting a subsidy of 200,000l. a year, to proved. He conceived it to be a measure extremely necessary for the dignity and comfort of every Prince of Wales. A Prince of Wales, by a particular law, became of age at 18, while every other subject was not of age till 21. A young man at that age, when the passions were at their height, and in his situation, might be led into expenses beyond his income, and which, perhaps, might border on ex--the distresses of the people in consetravagance. Such a circumstance he could not consider as a serious reflection on a young man of eighteen. Those who had been concerned in bringing forward this business, had so managed, as to take away all popularity from the Prince in order to center it in themselves. He should not, on the present occasion, betray any thing that had passed in private conversation. But it was a notorious fact, that when the marriage of his Royal Highness was agreed upon, there was a stipulation that he should, in the event of that union, be exonerated from his debts. What could his Royal Highness understand by this, but that measures would be taken for the immediate exoneration of those debts; not that they should be left hanging over for the space of nine years. The authors of the bill had stated, that the credit and stability of the throne depended upon the support of the independence and dignity of every pranch of the royal family, particularly of the Prince of Wales. Was the method they had taken the best calculated to support that dignity and that independence? His Royal Highness had, indeed, expressed his acquiescence in whatever measures the wisdom of parliament might think fit to recommend. But what was the situation in which he was placed? The bill was, in one point of view, a pub lic bill, as was every bill which related to any part of the royal family; but it was more strictly a private bill, as nothing could be done without the consent of the Prince. Advantage, then, had been taken of the difficulties in which he was involved in order to procure from him this consent. He was forced to express his acquiescence, in order that something might be done. He was in the situation of a man, who, if he could not get a haunch of venison, would rather take any other haunch than go without He knew persons in another place, who possessed great powers of eloquence, and abundant choice of animated expressions. Those persons had exerted quence of the war-the regret of laying additional burthens on the public;" yet if they had adopted, with respect to his royal brother, a language somewhat more favourable, they would not have had a vote less to the present bill. The obloquy that had been thrown upon the Prince had not been confined to the speeches in the other House but people out of that House had been employed to write and publish the most indecent and scurrilous pamphlets, painting the Prince's conduct in the basest colours, and endeavour. ing to lessen him in every shape in the eyes of the public. He remarked on the situation of the Princess of Wales, a lovely and amiable woman torn from her family; for though her mother was the king's sister, she might still be said to be torn from her family, by being removed from all her early connexions; what must be her feelings from such circumstances attendant on her reception in a country where she had a right to expect every thing befitting her high rank, and the exhalted station to which she was called? As a friend to the Prince, he, however, would not oppose the passing of the bill, for he was convinced that the sooner it was passed, the sooner would its absurdity and malignity appear. If the arrears of the duchy of Cornwall were due to the Prince during his minority, that question would quickly be brought forward, and he trusted that the learned lord before whom it would come to be argued in his judicial capacity, and whose justice could not be impeached, would throw no impediment in the way of its speedy decision. If the Princess had children, an event which might soon be expected to take place, the very movers of the bill would be convinced of its absurdity and inhumanity, and would themselves be obliged to come forward with amendments on its present provisions. The bill was then read a second time. Lord Grenville said, it was evident that no grant made to the Prince, could be rendered effectual for his ease and comfort, unless means were at the same time taken to relieve him from his embarrassments. It became necessary, therefore, to make provisions with a view to that object. The interference of parliament could alone effect what was desirable with respect to the Prince himself, or give proper security to his creditors. It was satisfactory to know that his Royal Highness was disposed to acquiesce in whatever measures parliament might think fit to recommend. He had a clear and decided opinion, that the grant to be made by the present bill to his Royal Highness was not more than what constituted a proper establishment for the maintenance of his state and dignity. Out of that grant, however, a very large sum was to be appropriated to the discharge of his debts. The question, then, was, whether, under the present circumstances, parliament ought to have taken upon itself the payment of the debts, and to have assigned the whole of the establishment unincumbered to his Royal Highness? He was persuaded that the illustrious personage himself would not, under all the circumstances of the times, have desired any proposition to have been made to pay his debts, which should have had the effect to leave him in possession of his full and unincumbered income. If it was necessary to make provision for the support of the state and dignity of the Prince of Wales, and the grant made by the bill was not more than ought to be assigned for that purpose, the next point was, what sum ought to be appropriated out of the grant for the payment of debts? On the one hand was the consideration of that state, which it was necessary to support, and which must unavoidably be curtailed by any large appropriation; and on the other, the consideration of the much longer period during which the Prince would be left under his embarrassments, if only a small sum should be set apart towards the liquidation of debt. He must own that the proportion set apart for this purpose was a much larger one than he should have been disposed, in the first instance, to submit to the House. But coming before their lordships in the shape in which it now did, recommended by the weight and authority of the House of Commons. and apparently sanctioned by the general voice of the country, he thought it was that sum which they not only ought to permit to stand in the bill, but which it was even desirable for them to adopt. He concluded with moving, that the bill be committed. The Duke of Bedford said, he felt considerable pain in being obliged to blame the rash extravagance of the Prince: he had less difficulty in adverting to the conduct of his majesty, as he knew that ministers were responsible for the part which he had been advised to take on the present occasion. He certainly would have opposed the bill, had not the Message been that day brought down to the House, stating the acquiescence of his Royal Highness. The bill itself he considered as extremely objectionable, as it referred to two points, which were in themselves perfectly distinct. He certainly approved of the conduct of ministers in having stated in the message to parliament that his Royal Highness was much encumbered with debts. But the conduct which he thought that they ought to have adopted was, either to have voted the necessary sum for his establishment, and left it to himself to take the proper measures for satisfying his creditors, or to have waited till such time as he had chosen to come forward to request the assistance of parliament for the purpose of their liquidation. Considering the rise of all articles, he did not think an addition of 25,000l. above what had been granted to former princes of Wales too much on the present occasion; but he was surprised that ministers, who had formerly thought so much smaller a sum adequate for his establishment, should now think that the alteration in his circumstances required so large an addition as 75,000l. However disposed he might be to censure the extravagance of the Prince, he was not one of those who thought that it ought to be magnified into a crime. There were several considerations which tended to extenuate the conduct of the Prince. They ought to recollect his age, the situation in which he was placed, and the insufficiency of his income to support the splendor necessary for his rank. He thought that it would have been much better to have advanced a sum at once sufficient to have liquidated the debts. His royal father might have been expected to have contributed for that purpose. It was rather singular, that when they had granted a subsidy of 1,200,000l. to the king of Prussia, and a much larger sum by way of loan to the Emperor, they should now be disputing about advancing a few hundred thousand pounds for the Prince. When ministers railed at the extravagance of the Prince, they forgot the examples of extravagance which had been afforded him in former times. The Earl of Lauderdale thought, that the sum to be granted to the Prince of Wales was by no means more than was necessary. So far from it, that it would appear unequal to what parliament had allowed before on many occasions. In his opinion, ministers had contrived, very unworthily, to load his Royal Highness with an unpopularity, which they could not have brought upon him by any means but those which they had pursued in the progress of this transaction. Ministers had acted warily in this business; they had taken to themselves the credit of rescuing his Royal Highness from his embarrassments, and of paying his creditors; they were unwilling he should have any of the management of it himself, because they knew that in that case he would have the popularity of the measure, because the public would then perceive that the idea originated from him.-But while ministers had thus artfully and speciously acted, he, for one, must say, that, under pretence of providing for his dignity and ease, they had done every thing in their power to lower him in the opinion of the people of England. Had they allowed him this income, and given to him the management of it, they would have afforded a much more solid foundation for the support of his dignity. The plan in this bill for the liquidation of the debts, appeared to him exceedingly defective. He did not now look whether the Prince had or had not been extravagant, the question was, What he came to the public for? What had the Prince done to be so much censured? Was there any thing so very extraordinary in his present situation? What Prince did we know, who had not, in his situation, come for a greater sum from the public? Persons at his time of life, and in his station, rather regulated their conduct with a reference to what they expected, than what they actually possessed. When ministers pledged themselves in 1787, that no more applications for payments of debts should be made, they ought to have taken care that some provision like the present should have been made. They well knew the manner in which his Royal Highness was living, yet they never said a syllable against it. They had an opportunity some years ago, of entering into a provision of this kind, when it was in the mouth of every one, that a loan was negociating at Ant[VOL. XXXII.] werp; but ministers took no notice of it. Another circumstance which tended greatly to lessen the blame of his Royal Highness was, the contradictory advice, which had been from time to time offered him. By some he was advised to pursue a scheme of retrenchment and economy; but he had no sooner made up his mind to this, than other more subtle and alluring advisers persuaded him that it was necessary to the dignity of the heir-apparent, that he should live in a state of splendor: a kind of catechism was given him to get by heart, and the chief burden of the creed was, that he ought, at least, to live upon a footing with M. Egalité. No wonder that a youthful and sprightly mind should be led astray by such fascinating counsels: he got his catechism by heart; he practised the doctrines inculcated; and now the very men who taught him it, were the loudest in condemning the effects it had produced. He was sure that if the people of this country saw the matter in its real light, ministers would not be successful in their endeavours to bring odium upon his Royal Highness. He disapproved of the retrictions, as far as they were personal, against his Royal Highness; but observed that he should approve of them, if they were merely general to any prince of Wales. He blamed ministers for not making these provisions, when the subject of the Prince's debts were before parlia ment on a former occasion, for he did not see why one message to parliament should be followed up with more restrictions than another message. Ministers might ask, "How could they do it?" There were a thousand ways by which they could. They might have done it then by the very means they adopted now, if they had been willing. It would require more ingenuity for them to convince the public that they should not then have done it, than that they would not. They had cherished the hopes of his Royal Highness, and now they attempted to degrade him; but he was not at all surprised at that, because it was perfectly correspondent with all their conduct towards his Royal Highness, and towards the public. The message from his Royal Highness delivered this day. prevented him from opposing the principle of the bill. The Duke of Clarence said, that when the loan abroad was proposed, he could state positively, that the secretary of state prevented it. [K] Lord Grenville asserted without fear of contradiction, that no censure could possibly attach to ministers for their conduct, in any part of this proceeding. What was the censure? and what the argument to support it? First, that ministers were the cause of these debts being contracted. How so? At the time when the subject of the debts of his Royal Highness was before parliament on a former occasion, he had not the honour of holding any official situation. He gave his opinion only as a member of parliament, and that opinion he was ready to maintain. The question of the precise amount to be granted, was one on which there must be a diversity of opinion. But how could it possibly be supposed, that ministers had endeavoured to attach any unpopularity on the Prince, by bringing the matter forward? But it was said by the noble earl, that ministers endeavoured to degrade the Prince by the measure which they now brought forward. Now, he would wish to ask, whether that noble earl would not have said, that ministers, if they refused to bring this subject forward, had attempted to disgrace his Royal Highness? It was said, that ministers were to blame for not bringing this business forward sooner, and for not having taken measures to prevent the contracting debts in future. What! before any application on the part of his Royal Highness to discharge his incumbrances? What right had they to do so? There would have been great indelicacy in such officious conduct. parliament should be cautious in such recognitions. Some years ago, when the same question was agitated, he bad a great inclination to come down to the House on purpose to oppose it, and to state his reasons for so doing; but some private business interfered, and he did not attend. His majesty then stated the grounds of his application, together with strong assurances of regularity in future. Those assurances was still in every body's mouth, and nothing stronger could be urged against the present question. Parliament at that time wished to avoid looking too minutely into the accounts, because it trusted a similar application would never again be made. The Commons in particular replied in their answer to the royal message, that they acted specifically upon that reliance. He was sorry, therefore, that a similar application had so soon occurred; and he was sorry also that the former assurances were given, as they tended to lessen that respect which he wished to see attached to the royal family; especially, too, as the royal family for fourscore years had constantly conformed to the parliamentary arrangements. He imagined, that the arrangements which were made by parliament in 1787, might have been adhered to, and the Prince's credit been preserved; for, in regard to the regulations then made, there was nothing proposed but what the Prince was competent for. Indeed he was desirous that parliament should not recognize these debts, that if any of them should remain unpaid on the demise of the Prince, they might serve as an example, in terrorem, to future dishonest creditors. It would therefore be a wholesome lesson, that parliament should not be responsible. Another objection he had, was, that the provisions did not answer the purposes for which they were professed to be made. They professed to liberate the prince from the clamours of his creditors, when the bill was not compulsory and mandatory upon all. It operated only upon those who should choose to submit, and an honest tradesman would be a madman to claim the benefit of this act, when he might recover his demands The Marquis of Buckingham said, he must enter his protest against charging the sums specified in the bill on the consolidated fund, instead of the civil list. On the famous debate respecting the increased establishment of Frederick Prince of Wales, the question never once was agitated, whether any sum should be taken out of the consolidated fund, but whether his majesty should give a larger allowance out of the civil list. Only of late years had this system been departed from; and even if it had not been so, he should probably have objected, as he should have wished ever to resist such accessions to the civil list. As to the re-immediately by law. True it was, that cognition of certain debts which were involved in this bill, he had hoped when they were mentioned, that something would have been said upon them. Parliament had never recognized the debts incurred by the crown or its dependencies until the present reign; and it was fit that some clause might afterwards be added to accommodate this matter; but as it now stood, the bill was extremely defective. In respect to the debts, he thought the Prince might have adopted some measure for their liquidation, without submitting himself to the control of parliament. The Earl of Carnarvon said, it was impossible to separate the provision for the payment of the debts from the allowance for the income. It would be to the disgrace of the country, if a legal process could be instituted against the Prince after the passing of this bill; but a clause would remedy that evil. The Earl of Guilford wished the settling sist or maintain his dignity. He would of the debts had been left out of the pro- | ask the noble lords in the confidence of vision made for the establishment. He the Prince, whether the bill in question was aware, that without parliamentary se- was not totally different from that first curity it might be difficult to adopt an proposed to his Royal Highness; as well effectual plan of arrangement; but he as contrary to his opinion? He, from could not approve of conjoining the pro- being honoured with his confidence, could visions. It was impossible to blame the state what it was. His Royal Highness Prince for exceeding the income allowed could not help feeling that the bill, as it in 1780, when it was the general opinion, now stood, involved him in an unpleasant that an establishment suitable to his rank, dilemma. The measure was contradictory could not be supported with less than in itself. If one part of the bill was im100,000l., per annum. plicitly obeyed, the other must necessarily be neglected. The object of the measure was, to give an increased income to his Royal Highness. In giving this income, it was thought to be such as was necessary to support the rank of the heir apparent. If such, therefore, was the object, the other provisions of that act entirely destroyed such intention. For immediately after the additional income was voted, it was, by the subsequent parts of the bill, taken away; and he was dismissed into retirement, with the rank of a private gentleman. If this latter part of the arrangement must be observed, the former must be defeated. His Royal Highness felt this contradiction, and thought, from the imperfection of the measure, that it was likely the wisdom of parliament must in a future day again be called upon. But whatever was the individual opinion of his Royal Highness, he submitted with the utmost pleasure to the wisdom of parliament. He knew not who advised the application to parliament on the present occasion; if he had had the honour of being consulted, he should have endeavoured to dissuade the Prince from making it. In regard to the bill, he knew that the Prince had proposed to accept 100,000l. a-year, exclusive of the revenues of the duchy of Cornwall, and that 50,000l. a year should be set apart for the payment of his debts. With respect to the arrears of the duchy of Cornwall, his Royal Highness looked to them with no other view than as a means of paying his debts. By the manner in which the bill had been brought forward, it appeared to him that the minister had not given sufficient credit to the public for their generous and liberal sentiments towards the Prince. Had he trusted more to them, the matter would have been differently concluded, and more to the interest of all parties. By the speech which introduced it, much stress was laid on the embarrassments which attended the mea. The Earl of Moira said, that the provisions of the bill were inadequate to the purposes which it held out, and maintained that, throughout the whole of this transaction, the Prince had been unfairly dealt with. If a different conduct had been pursued, he was sure the public would have been as ready to come forward with assistance, as the Prince was uneasy that circumstances made it necessary for him to apply to them. Nothing could more strongly point this out than the communication which he had made to parliament. He had always been one of those who thought the Prince's income inadequate. He differed entirely from the noble earl, who stated that his Royal Highness had regulated his conduct and expenses by catechism set down to him, by which he was led to believe, that whenever his debts amounted to a sum sufficiently large, he ought then, and not before, to make his situation known to parliament. He was sure that from no such catechism, and by no such advice had his Royal Highness's conduct been dictated. He thought language by far too harsh had been applied to the Prince's conduct, when his fault really amounted to no more than this, that he was ignorant of the old proverb, " that drop added to "that drop added to drop may become an ocean,' and thus had thoughtlessly involved himself in embarrassments much greater than he had any idea of. According to the present bill, a smaller income was allowed to his Royal Highness than would, by experience, be adequate to the purposes for which it was intended, or on which he could sub |