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asserting that "the slave trade is con- also should be lost to Great Britain. trary to the principles of justice and hu- this be a speculation only, I answer it manity," is a cruel mockery of the suffer- with a better ;-that the events and issues ings of persons in his situation, and that of human counsels are at the disposal of it adds insult to wrong. The hon. gene- a higher wisdom than ours, and that those ral, on the other hand, says, that it is conclusions, which we most strongly nothing but the truth, that it was true a dread and deprecate in prospect, are hundred years ago, and has continued so very often beneficial in the event. If it to this hour; and therefore, I suppose, be a menace, I answer it with a fact. At he concludes it is too trite and notorious the outset of that unhappy contest, the to be worth asserting. The hon. gentle- terror held out by those who promoted men agree better in their views, than in and those who opposed it, was the loss of their principles. The hon. baronet says, America; by the former if we yielded, that the state of the greater part of the by the latter if we persisted. But all West India proprietors is already suffi- parties agreed, that the loss of America ciently distressing, and in many instances must be the ruin of Great Britain. America deplorable; that their estates are mort- was lost; yet in spite of that loss, and gaged, for nearly the whole of their ac- of all that this country wasted and suftual value, to merchants and other monied fered in attempting to recover it, Great men in this country; and that this bill Britain has survived, and stood as firm will annihilate the security of the mort- and secure as ever; nor do I know with gagees. Be it so. The interest then is certainty that, setting aside the expenses in them, and from them we have had no and calamities attached to the contest, petition. The hon. baronet's anxiety Great Britain is essentially weakened or about the mortgagees is extremely gene- impoverished by the separation of Amerous, I confess; but, if his account of rica. The hon. general states it as an abthe actual situation of West India pro- surdity in the councils of administration perty be correct, the owners would suffer to waste so many lives, and to squander little or nothing, even by a general fore- such immense sums of money in expedi closure. These gentlemen recommend tions to make conquests in the West Init to us not to forget policy, while we are dies, while in effect they forbid the cultitalking of justice; from which I can only vation not only of any you may acquire, collect, that, in their minds at least, there but even of those which you possess. Of is an evident distinction between policy what use are the acquisitions, if the imand justice, In mine, Sir, they are the portation of negroes be forbidden? Sir, the same. If there be any circumstances it would be improper to enter now into of the present moment, or in the actual the policy of these expeditions. That situation of affairs in the West Indies, question is not before us, nor is this the. which may render it prudent, or advisable time for it. But to the objection, as it is. not to carry the measure of abolition into stated, the answer is obvious. On our instant execution, his majesty's ministers, principles, there is no contradiction be who have the best information on such tween the policy of the expeditions and, points, and who are trusted with the care the object of the bill. The two measures of the general interests of the empire, may be consistent, at least in the judg-. ought to tell us so. I must confide in ment of persons, who think and maintain, their prudence. If, by withholding any as I do, that the cultivation of all the lands necessary information of fact, they suffer in the West Indies may be effectually prothe House to be misled, they are to an- vided for without a farther importation of swer for it. But, as to general and fun- negroes from Africa. The hon. baronet damental principles of policy, I want no complains of the extreme rigour and se instruction from any man. I know that verity of the penalties imposed by this. it is by justice only that great em- bill. My answer is, that if the purposes pires can preserve their greatness, "sic of the law be good, if the object be just fortis Etruria crevit," and that, by aban- and necessary, the penalties must be sufdoning that principle, they insure their ficient to enforce the execution, and inruin. But, when argument fails, we are sure the effect. Beyond that point, I alto be threatened if we persist. The ex-low, they ought not to be extended. On ample of the loss of America is held up to us by way of warning not to provoke the West India islands, lest they

this part of the subject I call on the gen tlemen of the long robe to give us their advice and assistance. It is properly.

argument in favour of this trade to say, that it was permitted or encouraged by our ancestors; for, if they were wrong, it was no reason why we should persist in the error. The antiquity of a bad system was no justification of its continu ance. The friends of the abolition had obtained every necessary communication on the subject. Parliament had heard evidence, and examined witnesses, and were convinced of the necessity of the abolition. Gentlemen had talked of their property in this trade; they therefore must have a bias upon the subject; but those who wished for the abolition had no interest one way or the other; they acted only from conviction, and a sense of their duty. It appeared to him, that upon this question, all the eloquence, all the argument, and all the justice was on the side of the abolition. The House had already voted for the abolition; they were therefore bound in honour, and consistency to vote for this bill.

their business and duty to watch the formation of all penal acts, and to take care that they neither violate the principles, nor extend the rigour of our English jurisprudence without absolute necessity. I must own I have my doubts, whether there may not be some foundation for the apprehension expressed by the hon. baronet, that the extreme latitude of the terms used in the first clause, by which the "procuring, aiding, or abetting" the importation of any negroes, is put on the same footing with the actual importation, and made subject to the same penalty of transportation for fourteen years, may involve innocent persons in the consequences of acts done without their participation, and even without their knowledge. Here again I call on the gentlemen of the long robe, to examine this matter, and give us their advice. The hon. baronet affirms and laments that, by this clause, men of birth, fortune, and education, polished and improved by manners and by learning, are liable to a punishment degrading as well as rigorous, and to be confounded with felons and criminals of the vilest denomination. I feel the force of the objection, and wish to have it considered. At the same time, I do not think it comes with a very good grace from the hon. baronet. When the sedition bill passed, he took no part to oppose it. He saw no objection then to the newly-created penalty of transportation for a seditious libel, on a second offence. By what sort of persons could that sort of offence be committed? By men of learning, genius, and education. He saw no objection, then, to the penalty of transportation in company with felons of every description, though possibly it might fall on such a man as Mr. Burke or Dr. Parr, or on persons the most eminent in the kingdom for literature and science. Such men, if they were obnoxious to government, would be prosecuted, in the first instance, on any trifling pretence, for the sake of insuring the penalty attached to the second conviction. The hon. baronet has different rules and measures for offenders, whose quality and character are the same. But justice ought to be distributed with an equal hand to all men. The class of the offender undoubtedly should be considered, as well as that of the offence. If, in this respect, the bill should be found liable to objection, it ought to be corrected.

Mr. M. Montagu considered it as no

Mr. Secretary Dundas said, that he had found himself called upon, in discharge of a public duty, to come down to the House that evening, not without considerable personal inconvenience, to oppose a measure, which, if carried into execution, would not only not be productive of good, but the cause of much mischief. He knew he had the misfortune, in entertaining this opinion, to differ from some honourable friends, for whose judgment he had the highest respect, and of the integrity of whose intentions he was well convinced. Though no subject had undergone more ample discussion, though every degree of evidence had been called in, and every species of argument brought forward, all that had passed in the course of seven years debate, had only tended to confirm him in the truth of the propositions which he had originally laid down. And those propositions he would re-state, as they contained the grounds of all the opinions which he had formed. The first was, that admitting the African slave trade to be founded upon injustice and inhumanity, and that it would be for the interest of the colonies that it should be abolished, this was not the proper time for the abolition. The second was, that without the cordial co-operation of the West-India planters it would be absolutely impossible at any time, by any legislative provisions, to effect an abolition of this traffic. He very easily foresaw the sort of reply which would be made to him:

it would be said, "What! will you continue to commit injustice, robbery, and murder, because, if you don't, others will do it?" To this he would answer, that those who considered this question merely with a view to humanity, must give up the very ground of their argument, if they put it in that way; because it was absurd to talk of a wish to serve the cause of humanity, by throwing the trade into the hands of those who would not carry it on with so much mildness as we did. It would be very fair for gentlemen to say, they wished, by the abolition of this trade, to wipe away the stain which it had thrown upon this country; but it was absurd to say, they wished to serve the cause of humanity by it, because by the mode which they proposed, the very reverse must be the result. It had been stated, that America, Denmark, and other powers, were taking steps towards the abolition of this trade. He would state his opinion very fairly upon that point he did not think it possible for England to abolish the slave traffic, unless other nations would also consent to its abolition. He did not like to speak about the power which this country had over the colonies; it was a subject which required to be handled with great delicacy; but he wished just to throw out a hint for the serious consideration of the House. If this point, of the extent of our power over the colonies, remained a matter of dispute, it might lead to the discussion of another question, which this country had not been accustomed to hear disputed. No man, who was able to form an idea of the relation which subsisted between the mother country and her colonies, could be ignorant of these points-that the colony was entitled to protection; that she was bound to send her produce to the mother country; and that she was to take, in return, the exports of the mother country, and not go to any other market for them. These were all points which admitted of no dispute. A question, however, had been started only of late, how far the mother country was entitled to prohibit that supply from being obtained by its colonies which it cannot furnish and which they have been accustomed to receive from the continent of Africa. And, if there was not something in this subject which precluded all considerations of policy, he conceived a full discussion of this question to be well worth the attention of the House.

But waving the question of right, he was decidedly of opinion, that it was out of the power of the British legislature to suppress the trade without the co-operation of the West-India planters. To this he knew it would be said-What! is the British navy unable to prevent the decrees of parliament from being violated? Who is the man that will maintain such an absurd position? He was that man, and in confirmation of his assertion, he would appeal to the experience of last year, when with 28 ships of war stationed on the coasts of two islands in the West-Indies we were unable to prevent a communication between these and other islands. Slaves would be smuggled into the British islands in spite of all the vigilance which could be exercised. The act offered an inducement to the West-India merchants to combat its execution. The conclusion was one which he would press, again and again, upon the House-that they ought impartially to consider whether those would most effectually attain the object of the bill, who proposed an abolition of the trade by slow and gradual means, whether those who best consulted the interest of the oppressed African, who were for abolishing the trade by gradual, conciliating, and natural steps, or those who attacked it with the high hand of head-strong authority, forgetful both of the parties interested, and the property at stake. He submitted it to the supporters of the bill, whether it was not worth while to mix a little conciliation with their provisions; to mix a little concern for the interests of the colonies, with those manly and just feelings for the fate of an oppressed nation. He was afraid that the whole mode of proceeding had tended to engage the West-India planters in one common interest; or rather, perhaps, in one common passion, against their best interests. Aspersions of the foulest kind had been thrown out against the West-India planters, as a collective body. They had been represented as a band of savages, and as disgracing the country from which they claimed descent. There was no species of obloquy with which they had not been besmeared: there was no tale of reproach which had not been hunted out; no insulated instances of cruelty which had not been brought forward as characteristic of all the planters. Accordingly, the first sentiment which offered itself to the minds. of the planters, was a desire to vindicate

their own characters. Come, said they, with one voice, let us exculpate ourselves from the imputation of these crimes, the disgrace of which will descend to our posterity, and make them ashamed to acknowledge us as their ancestors. The common injury which their character sustained, united them in one common

cause.

Mr. Dundas then adverted to the provisions contained in the bill. The penalties were rigorous: but he was not inclined to quarrel with them if the object of the bill was admitted to be proper. If he had been the framer of the bill, however, there was one clause which he certainly would not have admitted, viz. that by which the planters were invested with the power of removing negroes from one island to another. After acquiring an attachment to the soil, and being in some measure a second time domiciliated, to be separated from a wife, a son, or a relation, and conveyed to an island to which he was a stranger, seemed to him to be one of the cruelest situations in which the unhappy African could be placed. This power, however, might be reserved to the planters as a proof of the attention which had been paid to their interests by the framers of the bill. There was another clause, however, to which this observation would not apply. When a vessel, laden with negroes, was found at sea, what was to be done? The unhappy wretches were to be sold, and, as a recompence for their miseries, a moiety was to be given to the informer! Was this consulting the interests of injured humanity? He allowed the principle of the bill to be just he thought that the African slave trade was contrary to justice and humanity, and that it ought to be abolished; but he had no hesitation in saying, that it was not possible for parliament to give effect to the bill at the present moment. For he repeated, that, from the experience of last year, it would be absolutely impossible to prevent the smuggling of slaves from one island to another. And, upon this ground, he submitted to the House, whether it was possible to abolish the trade without the cooperation of the planters? He expected to have found something on the face of the bill, which would have shown that parliament paid some attention to the interests of a respectable body of men, who had put their property under the protection of the legislature. But in this

he had been deceived. It was stated by an hon. general, that the trade had existed for a great length of time. And the reply to this was, that its ancient standing ought to make us the more anxious to get it abolished. Ought we, in justice to the memory of our ancestors, to testify so much eagerness to throw upon them the stigma, of having so long encouraged a trade of inhumanity and injustice? But, independently of all considerations of this sort, the answer itself was not a fair one; for, certainly, the long duration of any system, was an argument why it should not be abruptly exploded. It had not, however, been sanctioned by a mere acquiescence on the part of the British parliament. Foreign merchants had been goaded and stimulated by this country, to embark their capital in the trade. It was unnecessary to refer to all the acts of parliament which might be quoted to prove this proposition; but what he argued from it was this-not that the trade ought not to be abolished, but that the legislature ought not to overlook the interest of any of the parties concerned; that while they acted upon the enlarged principle of granting justice to all mankind, they ought not to neglect the municipal and provincial interests of their own country.

The property vested in the West India islands had been calcutated to amount to between seventy and eighty millions, twenty of which were reckoned to be British. This claim of interest, though it had been much inveighed against, the planters had a right to state; and if the legislature was imposing any hardship upon them, their creditors had a right to complain. Four years ago he had proposed a gradual abolition, but when he proposed this, he never lost sight of appointing a commission to inquire into the amount of the injury which the planters would sustain, so that parliament might provide for their indemnification. The want of such a clause, was a capital objection to the present bill. If the bill, in its present form, were to go out to the West Indies, and if the planters were to be considerably inflamed by its contents, let gentlemen recollect the sort of provocation they had had from attacks upon their character as well as their property. In his opinion it would be wisdom on the part of the House, to pause before they came to a decision; to mix some measures of conciliation with their zeal; to mix

some parental care for the colonies with their ardour for the general interests of humanity; and to send out a commission along with the bill, to inquire into the amount of the damage which would be sustained by individuals, and the mode in which it might be most easily repaired. He shuddered when he anticipated the effects of an immediate abolition. The trustees of infants would naturally be led to look sharply after the revovery of that property of which they were the appointed guardians; and, if that was the case, did they really mean that all mortgages should be for ever foreclosed, without stepping in to prevent it? Courts of equity had sometimes thought fit to interfere, in order to prevent foreclosures; and such interference was, in his opinion, no less worthy of the legislature, when they considered the lamentable effects which accrued from them in the present instance. A considerable part of the property in the West India islands rested on credit, and an immediate abolition of the slave trade would expose the planters to all the rigour of their creditors. Some of the planters in the island of Tobago were bound to keep a certain number of negroes upon their estates; and when that island was taken by the French in the last war, some of the estates were seized by a judgment of a French tribunal, because they had not the proper number. In such instances, the abolition of the trade would amount to a confiscation of the estates.-He hoped it would not be said, that the last four years in which the planters were left at liberty to import negroes without restriction, was a sufficient reparation to them for the injuries which they would sustain. For, from the particular situation of the islands, it had so happened, that those islands which most needed supplies, were not in a condition to receive them. Jamaica, in which there was abundance of negroes before, had remained quiet. But, had St. Vincent's, which had been in a state of devastation; had Grenada, which had been in a similar situation; or had Dominica, which had been in a state of rebellion, reaped the benefit of the suspension? They certainly had not.

But this was not all. He had heard it stated as a matter of doubt, how far it was sound policy in this country to retain her West India islands, because we had not suffered from the loss of America; and one gentleman, on a former evening

had proposed, as an instrument to enforce obedience to our decrees, to menace them with independence. The right hon. secretary animadverted warmly on this expression, and to show the importance of the islands, he called upon the House to attend to the following statements.-The imports from the British West India islands in 1795, amounting to 8,800,0002. the revenue arising from which was 1,624,000l. The shipping was 664 vessels, employing 8,000 seamen. The exports from this country to the islands in 1794, amounted to 3,700,000l., employing 700 vessels and 12,000 seamen. And the produce of the West India islands imported into this country and exported, amounted to 3,700,000l., forming a great proportion of our foreign export trade. He asked, if these were objects worth the consideration of the legislature or not? If it was not a crime to talk of policy in the House of Commons, was not some caution necessary before we attempted to try experiments on an object of such importance? Were the gentlemen who used such language quite clear, that if we were to abandon our colonies, America would not take them under her protection, or that no other power would reach out a fatherly hand to offer them protection ? The Americans could scarcely fail to avail themselves of that occurrence, and incorporate or ally themselves with the colonies; and then, although the effect would not be immediate, our trade and commerce would rapidly decline. It was preposterous for a grave assembly of legislators, or, indeed, any set of men, past the rash and giddy period of youth, to treat that possible contingency with indifference.

He could not, for these reasons, avoid warning the House against passing the bill, without taking some steps to convince the planters that their interests should not be injured. To give the planters only a little longer time, would be doing no good to them, but much injury to the country. It might benefit, indeed, a few African ship-captains and slave-jobbers; but, by encouraging a great and rapid importation of aged negroes into the colonies, it would endanger their peace and security. There was only one way in which, in his opinion, the abolition could be safely ef fected-instead of limiting the number of slaves imported; to confine the description to those under a certain age. For this purpose none ought to be imported above above the age of twenty. The practica

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