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with an act of benevolence to mankind. I move you, Sir, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for the better Regulation and Improvement of the State and Condition of the Negro and other Slaves in the Islands, Colonies, or Plantations in the West Indies or America, under the dominion of his majesty, his heirs, or successors."

Mr. Serjeant Adair said, that though he concurred in the principles and object of the hon. gentleman, the general plan he had proposed was attended with such insurmountable obstacles as would induce him to give it his decided opposition. He would not, however, like the hon. gentleman, impute improper motives to the conduct of any one, and would give him the credit of being guided by the purest views of humanity and of justice; and were his propositions brought forward in a stage in which they could debate matters of regulation, or were they advanced in a colonial assembly, he should consider them entitled to support. In his mind, nothing but a total abolition could produce that amelioration which it was the object of any partial plan of regulation to obtain. The ingenious arguments that had that night so ably been suggested in pursuance of this idea, convinced him the more that such a plan was attended with difficulties which no talents could surmount. He hoped that the great measure, from which it only could result, would never be abandoned. There were many points upon which he agreed entirely with the hon. gentleman. Property, marriage, freedom from the lash, and regulation of the traffic on the coast of Africa, he considered in themselves as extremely good, but he was afraid they were not to be effected in the way proposed. As to the article of property, he did not well see how it could be realised, without fixing the negroes to the place where the property existed, and thus innovating upon the legal right in slaves which the masters at present possessed. The state of the slaves was so involved with the system which prevailed and the rights arising out of it to the proprietors, that no partial remedy could operate with advantage. With regard to the two others, marriage, and exemption from the whip, he would have heartily concurred in them, had the House been deliberating upon matters of regulation. As to the regulation of the trade on the coast of Africa, he could never assent to any plan of regulation that

would seem to indicate a recognition of the principle which had been denounced by the House after the fullest examination Upon the point of propagation, he was induced, from the facts upon the subject, to differ. The state of the slaves had not operated totally to defeat this object. But if all the advantages which should result from this propagation were not enjoyed, what an argument for the total abolition of the trade, and a complete prohibition of any new importation! So long as cultivation was cheaper from continued importation than from care and attention in rearing the children of the negroes, no pains would be taken to make the propagation answer the necessity.But the principal reason that induced him to give his negative to the motion, was the impolicy of interfering in the internal regulations of the colonies. He did not oppose it as denying the right. It was better to avoid all abstract reasonings on the right of the legislature to form regulations, and to confine it to the immediate necessity of the case. He was unwilling to take up the intermediate points between general admission and negation. of the right. As the regulations proposed were to have effect wholly within the colonies, he did not wish to drive them to the situation of the American colonies, and bring into question their separation from this country. It was admitted that the colonies were not represented; and this was a consideration that should attach us more to a complete abolition; for then there would be no need to reconcile the jarring interests of assemblies, or provoke any nice discussions. All that was to be done was to stop the supplies of negroes, and the evils complained of would cease of themselves. It was indeed true, that many of the islands were represented by their proprietors here; but it was not as proprietors of lands in the West Indies, but as inhabitants of this country. As well might it be argued, that because many persons from Ireland resided here, the British parliament might pass an act, disposing of the property of any class of persons in that country. He thought, therefore, that nothing would be so inju rious as the apportioning the lands of the West India proprietors, without their con sent. As he was convinced that the plan could not be effectual, without a total abolition, and as it was so dangerous in its principle, he would give it his negative.. Mr. Fox said:-The case, Sir, which

we have now before us is unquestionably | is permitted to exist. If we were at the one of very considerable magnitude. I beginning of a session, and there was any am still, however, ready, to give a de- solid hope that an abolition was likely to cided opinion upon the subject, and to show take place, I would yield to the argument the reasons upon which that opinion is of my hon. and learned friend: but the formed. Before I enter on the discussion bill introduced for that purpose has been of the question, it is impossible for me lost. I know not exactly, if the forms of not to premise, that whatever may be the the House would admit of the introduc result of the motion, the House and the tion of another, for the accomplishment public cannot fail to be gratified with the of the same object; or if they did, I see ability and philanthropy of my hon. no certainty of better success. When I friend, and must ever do justice to his look forward, I see little rational ground humane intentions. As to the object of of hope, particularly when I consider the the motion, it seems to be admitted, that characters and situation of some who were the principles upon which it is supported, in the minority on the late question. To are of the most desirable nature. My say, that men of the greatest power and hon. friend has admitted that the improve- influence in the country, and of unquesments he looks up to, must be of a gra- tionable abilities, could throw little weight dual nature; and he has certainly hit into the scale would indeed be ridiculous. upon the most solid and natural basis on What was actually the case? The queswhich to build his future superstructure, tion was introduced during the adminis when he proposes to commence his ope- trations and with the approbation of a man, rations by establishing a system of pro- who surely has neither less influence nor perty among the negroes. Independently, less personal talents than any of his prethen, of the principles abstractedly consi- decessors; and yet it has failed. If this dered, the chief questions seem to be; first, be so, when, where, how are we to prohow far, in a prudential point of view, it is cure success? The plan, too, was dewise in my hon. friend to bring forward feated, by a solemn decision of parliathe proposition he has now done, as con- ment; and, having disgraced themselves nected with, and introductory to, the in this shameful manner, what right have final abolition of the slave trade; and se- I to hope that another occasion will soon condly, what are the means by which he in- be presented for the attainment of this tends his principles to be carried into prac- desired object? What, then, does my tice?-My hon. and learned friend who hon. friend propose? That the House will spoke last, seemed to consider this as a de- not totally forget all the humane sentibate upon the propriety of adopting the pro- ments they have formerly uttered upon position now made to the House, or of the occasion; but that, if not inclined to deciding for a total abolition. How fulfil all they have promised, they will at happy should I feel were that actually the least show a desire of doing something. case, and with how little hesitation should I now come to consider the nature of the I prefer a total abolition! I do not con- means by which my hon. friend proposes ceive that the giving my vote one way or to carry his proposition into execution; the other this evening, is to be considered and upon this, undoubtedly the whole difas a proof of my receding one step from ficulty rests. The right of taxation and the ground which I have always taken on of general legislation have, I conceive, the question of the entire abolition of the been improperly confounded together. slave trade. I have pledged myself to the They are, to all intents and purposes, House upon that point. Those hon. gen- practically different. This difference was tlemen who have been equally, if not constantly acknowledged in the great more strenuous than myself in this cause, question of American independence. The I presume have no intentions of abandon- Americans never found fault with our leing it; but sure I am, that no session gislative acts, until they involved the shall pass, while I have the honour of question of taxation. Lord Chatham, in sitting in this House, without my exer- a speech which he made in this House, tions being employed to accelerate this and I do honour to his memory for the desirable event. I, for one, am deter- sentiment, said, that he rejoiced in the mined not to contribute to the increase or resistance made by America, to every perpetuation of the stigma which must attempt to tax her, for the purposes of ever be attached to this House and to revenue; and in the very same speech he this country, while that abominable traffic added (I do not say I go all that length

with him), that he nevertheless would not permit any matter of commerce to take place, not even a hob-nail to be made in America, without the sanction of the British legislature. I mention this chiefly to show the distinction that has been made between legislative acts of the one kind and the other; but in the American dispute there was a difference taken, not only between acts of general legislation and of taxation, but between acts of taxation for purposes of internal regulation, and acts of taxation for the increase of the revenue. Acts of taxation for the regulation of the post office were quietly acquiesced in. It was only when we offered them the alternative to accept or refuse indiscriminately acts of every description passed by the British senate, that they discovered signs of serious resistance.-With respect to the West Indies, we have already renounced every right of taxation. My learned friend says, we have no right of this kind. So do I. But he says, that he is not ready to admit in what respects legislative acts of any other nature may be passed, and he has brought forward the case of Ireland as in point upon this question. The act passed fourteen years ago put that matter right as to Ireland. In no instance could the difference between acts of legislation and taxation be more clearly ascertained I from this source drew my arguments during the American war. In every case either of external or internal regulation, the Irish were perfectly submissive but if the bare intention of raising a tax for the purpose of revenue had gone abroad, it would inevitably have produced resistance. I must confess, at the same time, that to legislate for colonies, is at no time desirable; it ought only to be done when necessity calls for it. How far is this the case at present? I do not wish, upon this occasion, to repeat the mere letter of the law. My learned friend, and every other professional man, would certainly tell me, that a statute that relates to any transaction as passing in Jamaica, would be as binding as if it took place in Middlesex; but I am not fond of unnecessarily exercising this legislative authority over persons not actually represented, and where the local situation is almost totally unknown. But we are at present reduced to an unfortunate dilemma, and I am obliged to put this question to myself, "Whether is it better to make use of a partial remedy which may in

some respects be exceptionable, or to permit the evil in its full extent to continue?" I have been accused of throwing out the threat of independence upon the subject of the West India islands. In answer to that, I most decidedly affirm, that if it were to become a question, whether these islands should be connected with this country, and in consequence of that connexion, all the stigma attending the abominable system of slavery should be ignominiously continued, or that their complete independence should take place. I should not have one doubt on the subject. I am by no means blind to the danger of such a separation. I desire it not: but if the colonies were inclined to refuse their assent to so wise and humane a proposition as has now been made for the amelioration of the state of the slaves, I should not feel myself inclined to employ either armies or navies to reduce them to subjection, but would, in the language of a gentleman, who, though not present, I cannot name, as being a member of this House, desire them to "go and be happy in their own way," if happiness could be found by acting contrary to every principle of justice, policy, and humanity. If, however, it be acknowledged that the British parliament has the power of general legislation, and that it may in some cases of necessity be exercised, I ask, what case of greater necessity can be put, than a case which involves the character and honour of the British name? I have occasionally said, that a war to preserve our honour is the only justifiable war. Even this principle, were it necessary, I should not find myself at a loss to support; but if in any case a legislative act is demanded for the purposes of interest, policy, aggrandisement, or the increase of commerce, are any such objects to be compared with that of removing the national dishonour, which must ever be connected with the continuance of this trade? I shall for these reasons unquestionably vote for the introduction of this bill. Were any person to give me a reasonable ground to hope that an abolition of the slave trade would speedily take place; were it held out to me that any other step would be taken towards an amelioration of the state of the slaves in the West Indies; were I to be told that a recommendation should come from the throne to effect the desirable purpose, I might perhaps be silent upon this occasion. But let me

parliament than the present, unless we consider as nugatory all we have ever heard, either from those who promote or oppose the abolition of the slave trade. Good God! Mr. Speaker, if we have come to a solemn decision upon the sub

no longer hear of expectations from the acts of colonial assemblies. When I look at the infernal code of laws, under which the poor negroes languish; when I see they are not considered as men, and reflect one moment upon the penalties to which they are subjected, and the oppres-ject, and yet pass year after year, withsion under which they labour, I expect out taking a single measure to carry our nothing from assemblies who give counte- resolutions into execution, are we not nance to such proceedings. It was urged guilty of hypocrisy of the basest sort? as an argument by my learned friend, I am constrained to vote for any measure that the question of abolition to which he of the kind proposed, in order to prove so heartily gives his assent, by no means that there is yet some sincerity left in the involves the dispute on the rights of le- House of Commons.-I hoped, Sir, that gislation, but that every provision in that my learned friend, with the anxiety he bill comes within the acknowledged au- expresses for a total abolition, would have thority of this House; but permit me to thrown out some prospect of such an say, that the opposers of that bill con- event being likely to take place; but I stantly held out as an argument of some am sorry to say, I see none such at the weight, the opinion which those immedi-present period. After what took place in ately upon the spot in the West Indies, 1792, and the subsequent flagrant breach or immediately connected with them, of promise that has been exhibited, all might entertain upon the subject. This, assurances coming from this House must therefore, is no fair ground for opposing be looked upon as vain and frivolous. At the motion. As to the question of repre- the same time, I confess I even now think sentation, the West Indies are not, pro- it would be something, were the House, perly speaking, represented in this House, during the present session to come to nor is it practicable, perhaps, that they some solemn resolution on the subject. I should be so; neither is Ireland; neither have already said, that a vote on this was America. As to their representa- question must necessarily be given with tion in the West Indies, it might be some degree of difficulty; but I give called a pure representation of property, mine clearly and conscientiously, because in consequence of the number of blacks. such a measure, with all the obstacles atBut we ought, in this case, to consider tending it, is less objectionable, and less the difference between a real and a virtual contrary to humanity and justice, than representation, and the proportion which, doing nothing to alleviate those miseries in this respect, the West Indies bear to which are at this moment attached to slaany other instance known in this country. very in the West Indies. Were an entire Were we even to bring to our recollection abolition of the trade now to be proposed the time when so many Irish landholders at any fixed period, I should probably obresided in this country and held seats in ject to any regulations of an inferior na this House, and when so much land in ture; but the question of abolition is lost, Ireland was under mortgage in this coun- and I have no option left. It is, indeed, try yet would that bear no proportion to come to this, that the British parliament the power and influence of West India have refused to abolish the abominable proprietors at the present moment. A traffic in human flesh, and the slaves in country may, undoubtedly, be virtually the islands are to be left to the humanity represented. I do not say it is in every of the West India proprietors! If it were instance the best mode; but standing clear that the colonial assemblies would where I now do, I must acknowledge the pass those acts which humanity demands, fact; and, surely, if any country was ever or that an abolition of the trade would be virtually represented, it is the West In-effected by parliament, there would be no dies in this House. Does not every gentleman who hears me, feel, from the fate of the bill for the abolition of the slave trade, that they are both virtually and powerfully represented in this House? In short, Sir, no case can appear to me to call in a more pressing manner upon the legislative authority of the British

occasion for any such measure as the present; but as no such thing is likely to take place, I find myself under the necessity of voting for the motion of my hon. friend.

Sir W. Young affirmed, that negroes were happier in general and more comfortable than the poor people of this

country. They were already allowed a piece of ground, which they cultivated as their own property. He was surprised that the hon. gentleman talked so lightly of giving to each negro as much land as would here be a qualification to vote. Had the propositions of the hon. gentleman gone to effect any local remedies by an address to the throne, in order to be recommended to the colonial assemblies, he would have heartily concurred therein. Slaves had served in the war from real attachment to their masters, and not from the motives ascribed by the hon. gentleman. He was surprised that the House could hearken to propositions that went to interfere with the internal legislation of the islands by taxing the landed property of the proprietors, and by giving the negroes their ground.

tion in a British parliament, that would have in its operation a local application to every estate in the West India colonies. He cautioned the House against stirring a question of such a delicate nature; it would only excite a spirit of jealousy, and defeat its own object. The House had relinquished the power of making any alteration with respect to the property of the negroes; it had given out of its hand the power of taxation in the colonies; therefore, if the stirring of any question was more dangerous than another, it was that to which he now adverted. If parliament reserved its undoubted right to regulate every measure that relates to trade, it retained the power of abolishing the slave trade. Why, then, not adopt the measure at once, without involving it in innumerable difficulties by attempting to interfere with the local legislation of the colonies? In this view of the question, he felt himself bound to give his ne

Mr. Pitt said, that what had fallen from the hon. baronet was a subject of some consolation. He contemplated with satis-gative to the present motion. faction that these unfortunate people had experienced some benefit from the discussions which had taken place on the subject: but there was still much to be done, and that could be only accomplished by a total abolition. The system was fundamentally wrong, and no amelioration of the condition of the slaves in the West Indies, could remove his objection to that system; but he had sanguine hopes that parliament would complete what it had so laudably begun. As the planters became more enlightened, they would find it their interest to soften the condition of the slaves, and he hoped that the spontaneous efforts of the planters would induce them to ameliorate their situations, exclusive of what had been imposed upon them by the executive government of the country. The total abolition of the traffic in those unfortunate people, he concluded was the only act to be expected from the British House of Commons, and without this no local act of legislation would be of any material avail. As long as new negroes were poured into the islands, every plan adopted must prove inadequate to the end proposed. No man would deny that many of the principles laid down by the hon. member, were founded in justice and humanity it was laudable to instil into their minds morality; but all instruction was fruitless, as long as new negroes were imported into the colonies. He was clearly against passing any law for taxa

Mr. Windham said, he was convinced that all parties sincerely wished to ameliorate the condition of the slaves in the West Indies. Every plan that went to that effect should always meet with his concurrence. He acknowledged that he was in possession of Mr. Burke's plan, and highly approved of it; as a part, therefore, of that plan, he would certainly support the present motion. If they were to proceed in this way, he did not think there would be any determined opposition from the planters; if there was, it would arise principally from a question that had been touched upon relative to the power of this country to legislate in all matters for her colonies,-a question which ought not to be agitated at all, except in cases of absolute necessity, and then only as far as the immediate exigency of the case required. He wished those who were so cautious of venturing on that discussion now, had been as much so upon other parts of the question, particularly the total abolition. He had sanguine hopes that much in the way of amelioration would be affected by the colonies themselves; and he did not despair, but by their exertions, and such plans as that now proposed, the slave trade would be abolished without any danger; and from this idea it was, that he preferred the present and similar regulations, even to an immediate abolition. He could never agree with those who said they would would have no compromise on the subject.

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