woolfack, and the report was ordered to be received to

morrow.

GENERAL INCOME BILL.

On the motion for the second reading of this Bill,

The Duke of Norfolk faid, that as the printed Bill had only been in the hands of Noble Lords about two hours, it was not to be imagined that the alterations which had been made in the original Bill were at all known to their Lordships. The original Bill was very voluminous, and the whole meafure was infinitely complex, intricate, and he was afraid unintelligible. It was impoffible that a measure could be easily understood, or its detail eafily followed, when to explain fixty-one pages, which was the bulk of the original Bill, an Appendix of thirty-four pages (for to this number had the present Bill run) were introduced by way of a new Bill. He thought their Lordships could not with decency proceed to the second reading until the new claufes were known and explained, and as time would be requifite to acquire this knowledge from the perufal of the Bill itself (perhaps more time than the urgency of the crifis would admit of) he expected that the Noble Lord who had formed and made the Bill would give the neceffary information to the House.

Lord Auckland replied, that he should be ready at all times to give the Noble Duke, or any other Noble Lord, any information in his power. He would not deny that the meafure was comprehenfive, and unless its feveral provisions were carefully examined, the confideration of the whole measure might prove perplexing. With refpect to what the Noble Duke had faid of the complex and unintelligible nature of the Bill, it would not be thought impertinent in him to obferve, that all this had been anfwered by the Noble Duke himself, when he complained of the Bill not being more than two hours in the hands of their Lordships. Only fuperior genius was fitted quickly, and at once, to comprehend great and multiform fubjects; but it was not an attribute of any genius merely human, to comprehend what it could not contemplate, to understand what it had not examined. However, he should in as few words as poffible ftate the general tendency of the claufes which had been fuperadded. One was for extending the time limited for making returns of Income to the 5th of April. This claufe had been adopted, with a view to accommodate every one. Another was for permitting perfons to make their returns under feal. On this clause it was fufficient for him to remark, that while it was adopted to gratify the public, in his mind it afforded no

new

new means of fecrecy, A third Clause was, that one which enacted that a discount fhould be allowed to perfons paying their proportion of the tax immediately into the Bank, which in his mind was not only a wife measure for the revenue, but a measure of great and falutary accommodation to the fubject. Several doubts which obtained with respect to the Commercial Commiffioners were cleared up by it; the rates upon the inheritors of new income were revised, and feveral verbal inaccuracies were rectified; upon the whole, the Noble Duke would find, upon due examination and reflection, that the Amending Bill was neceffary and expedient, and that every improvement was made in the meafure, which in the prefent circumftances of the cafe it was capable of. It being understood that for the dispatch of bufinefs, the forms of the Houfe which require that all Bills fhall go through a Committee, would be difpenfed with.

The Duke of Norfolk rofe. He said, that if he fhould even attempt to oppofe the Houfe proceeding in the present meafure with fuch hafte, he did not imagine that any arguments he could adduce would gain him fupport in fuch a proceeding. The magnitude and importance of the Bill must be felt by every Noble Lord who heard him, and precipitately to pass it on in all its ftages, would imply a confidence in his Majefty's Minifters which it was not easy to yield them, He did not object to the principle or general object of the meafure, but if in its detail there were vexatious enactments, their Lordships must bear with him if he deprecated, at least, fo much of the Bill. He thought it muft be frequently revifed to be rendered even tolerably intelligible, and would therefore merely throw it out as a hint to the Noble Lord whofe official duty it was to attend to such meafures in their progrefs, that one among his chief objections to it was its complexity. He alfo difapproved of the clause enacting that a certain proportion fhall be taken of the average income of farmers and landholders for inftance, in which average what was paid for poor rates, &c. not at all taxable, would, according to this tax, be made liable to a proportion of the tax; and it appeared to him hard that only from one fourth to one half was allowed as a deduction in fuch cafes. He thought it would be injurious to the reve nue, as it must be to individuals, that informers fhould be allowed any reward by this Bill; for in a ftate of ignorance of its enactments, and even, as might happen, mifled by his lawyer, a man might, without at all attending it, make a wrong return. If the arrangement of the penalties had

been

been left wholly with Government, a proper mitigation might be allowed. He alfo thought that Minifters fhould have waited a little longer before they came again to Parliament; they had by no means fufficient experience of the original measure.

1

The Bill was then read a fecond time, and the Committee being waved, was ordered to be read a third time on the

morrow.

UNION WITH IRELAND.

Lord Grenville moved the Order of the Day for fummoning the full attendance of their Lordships to take into confideration the refolutions which formed the fubject of the conference held by that Houfe with the Committee of the Commons on the affairs of Ireland. The clerk having read the order,

Lord Grenville faid, he rofe in pursuance of the notice he had given, and for the purpose of calling their Lordships' attention to the very important and momentous fubject of the Refolutions, communicated to that House fome time fince by the Commons, at a conference between both Houses, relative to the State and Affairs of Ireland, and on which it was his intention to fubmit a motion to their Lordships.He knew it was univerfally felt, that it yielded to no fubject in importance; it affected the imperial interefts of Great Britain, it embraced the national interefts of Ireland, it engaged the attention of all men in the wide relations of British and Irish subjects, and it would, he was fure, meet with a full, a patient, and a difpaffionate difcuffion from their Lordships. At all times he would be addreffing them under great difadvantages, if fuch comprehenfive and weighty interefts were drawn into debate; but after the very able and minute difcuffion which had taken place on the fubject in another House, the difadvantages under which he then addreffed their Lordships must be obvious to every one, though felt by no one as much as himself. But if he came to the question under these disadvantages, the People of Great Britain and Ireland had to rejoice that the best talents, the foundest heads, the most generous and enlightened minds the country could boast of, were powerfully roufed to the contemplation of the meafure in its varied and important views that they had fhewn their utmost strength, had difplayed all their glory in the animating and impaffioned exertions of their genius, their patriotifm, and their zeal on a queftion which eminently concerned every individual in the three kingdoms, becaufe it fought to unite beneficially

No. 29.

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and

and for ever, to confolidate to all time, the rights, the liber ties, the dearest interefts of every portion of his Majesty's dominions, and of every man in them.

In the arduous duty of bringing forward with due advantage fuch a propofition to the confideration of their Lordhips, he had the fatisfactory relief of being convinced that the two main points or principles upon which the question could be properly argued had been already eftablished; they were univerfally acknowledged, and he was confident fo fully impreffed upon their Lordships minds, that no diversity of opinion could arife with refpect to them, namely, that in whatever they fhould do, or fteps they fhould take on the prefent occafion, that the fole and exclufive rights of the Irish Legiflature fhould be duly refpected and confidered precisely upon the fame footing as that of Great Britain; and fecondly, that it is effential to the interefts of the Empire at large, to all its branches and dependencies; and indeed, in the prefent ftate of things, to the existence of Civilized Society in Europe, that the connexion between the two kingdoms fhould be ftrengthened and improved to as high a degree of perfection as the cafe admitted. The joint application of thofe principles to all the material topics included in the subject in queftion, was a preliminary point which he was certain was not only impreffed upon their Lordships minds, but fo regarded by the Public at large, and univerfally acknowledged. Much as he might at any other time have lamented the difadvantages under which he addreffed their Lordships, when he recollected that the fentiments of thofe who had in the other House of Legislature maintained, and, as he muft always think, wifely, that only Union could fave Ireland-nay, fave Great Britain eventually, he had to rejoice that a greater advantage had been gained by the Public than any that could have accrued to it from his coming de novo to the difcuffion, by the wide circulation-defervedly wide circulation of the fentiments of thofe diftinguifhed perfons. While the Public could refer itself to thofe fentiments, every argument on which human opinion could on fuch a fubject be conclufively formed, was entirely within its reach. It might therefore be asked, why he offered himself to the notice of their Lordships on that occafion? He had no difficulty in anfwering this queftion. One branch of the Legiflature of this country had come to a vote on the fubject, had held a conference with a Committee of their Lordships, and common decency even required that that House should bestow on the subject that confideration

confideration which its own infinite importance, and the peculiar importance thus given to it, demanded. There was, however, another queftion preliminary to the subject itfelf, and that ftarted by fome who appeared generally to approve of the meafure, and that was, whether in the prefent state of things, as under the prefent circumftances of the Countries, it was proper to all to difcufs the subject.He was aware, at the fame time, that there were fome, and within thofe walls, who he thought would argue vehemently against the adoption of the meafure at all times and under any circumftances. Without attending at that moment to objections in toto, he would confider for a moment, whether or not the prefent was a time proper for bringing forward the difcuffion; and in this view he would fimply afk, whether it was not wife and politic by urging with as little delay as the nature of the cafe would admit of, a fair and temperate difcuffion of the general queftion, in the endeavour to do away the mistaken prejudices and unfounded impreffions which have prevailed against the measure in Ireland? He would ask if fuch a line of conduct were not preferable to their remaining filent upon the fubject, until thofe mifapprehenfions and unfounded alarms among the People of Ireland were inflamed into national hatred and animofity against this country. In making this obfervation, nothing was farther from his meaning than any idea which could poffibly offend the Irish Parliament, or irritate the. feelings of that nation; neither did he think the prefent proceeding on the part of the British Parliament could fairly have that effect; they certainly had the fame right as the Irish Parliament to exercise their deliberate functions on a queftion of great national importance. And here he must remark upon one very important point, namely, the way in which the queftion ftood in the Parliament of Ireland.The Refolution of their Commons, for more it could not be called, certainly was not conclufive. Miftaken conceptions of the queftion, ill founded prejudices and falfe reprefentations had affailed the meafure in Ireland, and without examination it had been rejected in one Houfe of Parliament; inftead of allowing mifreprefentation to triumph, and animofity to be enflamed by falfe and erroneous views, was it not right to vindicate our claims to the attention of the Irish People, whofe interefts have ever been the object of our care, to fhew them what it is we offer, and what they have rejected, and to explain the real nature of the terms on which we are willing to fhare with them all the bleflings