as the introduction of them at once proved and betrayed its weakness. I care nothing for your majority of five in the Houfe of Commons. I would rather adhere to the opinion of one fenfible unbiaffed man than a majority of feventy of others who are heated by a party debate, or the views of a faction. I do not think that Minifters have much real knowledge upon the fubject; it is pretty clear they have not from what has happened. I have no knowledge myfelf upon this point. I am no Diffenter, nor am I a Catholic. But for my own part, I should have great confidence in the judgment, as well as the conduct of the prefent Lord Lieutenant. He is of no party. He is brave and he is wife. He is a fingular man; for he is cautious as well as intrepid. Let him pledge his honour to the propriety of any measure, and I will affent to it."-If he then fhould pledge his honour that he was competent to decide upon the question, and judge what was beft for the country: if he fhould fay he knew the difpofitions of the different claffes of people, and poffeffed a certain knowledge that the measure propofed would refcue them from their prefent ftate, he should not hesitate to give it his unqualified approbation; but if it were intended to be merely a kind of experiment, if Minifters went on the good effects of the Scots Union, and reafoned from analogy on two cafes, marked by fo many differences, differences which had been difcuffed, and into which he fhould not, therefore, now enter; he owned the foundation was too weak, and the substance too loose to reft on. He deprecated, however, all corruption and intimidation. If the executive were once placed on a firm basis, the legislative might be able to stand; but if it was to be carried by force, it would be better to abandon that part of the measure relative to the reprefentation, than obtain it on such terms. He had stated his opinion rather particularly, because he was defirous of not being misreprefented. If he should happen to be fo, he hoped their Lordfhips would afford him an opportunity of correcting any material miftatements that might occur. If any of their Lordships effentially differ from him upon this fubject, he hoped they would allow him to explain his meaning. He was defirous that no false impreffions fhould go abroad from what he faid. He had no complaints to make againft newfpapers. They had treated him as he believed, they had treated fome others, with more favour than, perhaps, was merited. He had been kindly ufed by newfpapers, although he had not the leaft connection of that nature. But he had not received the fame treatment from other quarters. He alluded to what paffed paffed in another place, where fome comments had been made upon a fpeech of his. There certainly was nothing more cafy than to answer a speech, if the man who was to anfwer the fpeech made it. This was the cafe on the occafion he alluded to; there was alfo much ribaldry introduced upon the occafion. He could only fay that this kind of conduct excited in him no other fenfation than that of contempt. His character could not be injured by fuch attacks. He had during his political life ftood alone, and he always met with public fupport. He was willing to give his fupport to any man who would stand forward in defence of the true interefts of the country. He had now only to add, that this was a very important queftion.-It came home to the doors of their Lordships. The prefent was an awful period. The conteft was a ferious conteft. He very much disapproved of turning men out of office, because they do not concur with Minifters. This was not a period, nor an occafion, for fuch conduct; it might be practifed in quiet times, but ought not to be reforted to now. We were now on the eve of a war the most dangerous that ever threatened to overspread the world, It was at our doors, it was more contagious than the yellow fever, and in its nature more deadly. It would lead, unlefs wisdom interfered, to a difmal conflict between the rich and poor, in which, if they regarded the rich as foes, the poor would be the greatest fufferers; but it was difficult to make them properly understand that truth.-Great care fhould be taken to prevent the civil ftrife to which the contest in which we were engaged had fo direct a tendency. There was now an executive directory in Ireland communicating with France. Minifters had not proper information upon that fubject, for they knew not where it was, elfe they would furely put an end to its proceedings. It was his with that due caution should be used to preferve the British Empire entire amidst the convulfions of furrounding States. He wished to fee Great Britain and Ireland ftand like two rocks in the fea, unmoved and unaffected by storms or tempefts; to fee their inhabitants join heart and hand for the prefervation of property, of law, of order, of morality, and religion-all which they would lofe unless they adopted kind and even generous measures towards each other. Upon thefe confiderations he felt an inclination as an independent, for he never was a party man, to adopt all the refolutions alluded to by the Secretary of State, except one; that was the one which related to the addition of one hundred Members to the Houfe of Commons. He could not help expreffing his aftonishment aftonishment that this point seemed to have made fo little impreffion, it feemed as if it was of no more importance than if fo many flies were to be added; but fuch was the nature of things at this time. However, if others were fatisfied he should have nothing further to fay. If there were any errors in the plan, he hoped they would be feen in time to be effectually corrected. Lord Camden rose to say a few words in confequence of fome obfervations which had fallen from the Noble Marquis. He did not mean to follow the Noble Marquis through much of his fpeech, but merely to comment upon that part of it in which the Noble Marquis had endeavoured to fhew that the present state of Ireland was owing to the recall of the Noble Earl (Fitzwilliam) from Ireland, and the meafures which were fubfequently adopted. In the first place, he wished to remind the House, that before that Noble Earl left Ireland, there were disturbances in the county of Cavan.➡ Soon after he (Lord Camden) took poffeffion of the government of that country, there was a flight difturbance in Rofcommon, which was, however, foon fuppreffed, and the kingdom was quiet for nine or ten months, which was a proof that the public mind was not affected by the recall of the Noble Earl in the manner that had been ftated. He could with great eafe prove to their Lordships, that the measures which were adopted in that country were fuch as the neceffity of the cafe called for. If any cruelties were committed they were not authorifed by Government, and whenever any complaints were made, the perfons who were guilty of them were punished. Before he went to Ireland, it appeared by the Report of the Secret Committee that there existed a Correfpondence between the United Irishmen and France, and the confequence was, that two Bills were passed in the Irish Parliament, viz. the Gun Powder Bill, and the Convention Bill. The effect of thefe was to render treafon more cautious; but though they deprived it of many fources of ftrength, the fecret Affociations exercifed their horrid influence, and under their authority murder and affaffination had increased to fuch a dreadful height, that it was found neceffary to bring in the Infurrection Act. This Bill paffed in the spring of 1796, and the confequence was, the North, and the country near Dublin, which had been much difturbed, became for fome time tranquil. His Lordship here begged the indulgence of the Houfe; he was very little used to fpeak in public, and confequently he could not immediately arrange his ideas. It had been afferted, that the rejecNo. 30. 7 H. tion tion of the question of Parliamentary Reform was one of the principal caufes which led to that Rebellion which afterwards unfortunately broke out in that country. But this affertion was evidently incorrect, because before that period a Meffenger had been sent from Ireland to France. With refpect to the measures of feverity which were adopted in Ireland, they were not had recourfe to till the outrageous conduct of the Rebels compelled Government to use them. It was really fhocking every morning to read the horrid lift of murders committed by the Rebels upon peaceable and loyal fubjects. But Government did not adopt fevere measures till they were actually driven to it, and General Lake's Proclamation for the delivering up of arms, was not published till after the North was in Rebellion. When he faw plans formed for the deftruction of the Conftitution, and that they were carrying those plans into execution, he felt himself bound by the oath he had taken, to defend it. The confequence that followed that Procla mation, fhewed the neceflity of it, for the quantity of arms that were found was immenfe. The country was then returning to a ftate of quiet, when the negociation at Lifle broke off, and the efforts of the French party in Ireland became more vigorous; and then it was that the Government, being attacked, was compelled to have recourse to force, and that the danger which led Government to act, was a real one, the quantity of arms found was a most decifive proof. When he found things in this fituation, he thought it neceffary to adopt active and vigorous measures, and therefore the leaders of the Rebellion were taken up. And in this inftance he was ready to admit, that Government did accelerate the Rebellion; for when the Rebel Leaders found that all their plans were detected, they would not delay any longer, and on the 23d of May, 1798, the Rebellion broke out, and feveral Military Pofts near Dublin and elsewhere were attacked, and some of them defeated. It was not neceflary for him to take up their Lordships' time by ftating the events which took place when the Rebellion broke out. He had faid thus much, to fhew that the measure he had adopted had not produced the diftrefs of the country, but that the ftate of the country had rendered those measures neceflary. He was very glad to find, that though he could not agree with all that had fallen from the Noble Marquis, yet that upon the main queftion they did not difagree. The The fituation of Ireland was such as to render it abfolutely neceffary that fome steps fhould be taken, and no other one had been fuggefted as likely to produce fuch beneficial effects. There was one part of this fubject upon which he could not fpeak but with great delicacy, and that was, with respect to the Irish Parliament. He had upon every occafion during his refidence in that country obferved the energy and vigour of the Parliament of that country; but ftill he felt himself bound to fay, that he thought a better form of Government neceffary for Ireland, and therefore it was, that he should give his affent to this measure. The Noble Earl had ftated, that the confequence of this measure would be, to alienate the friends of Government. He was forry to observe, that much difference of opinion had prevailed upon this fubje&t; but though they might differ upon this, ftill upon other conftitutional points their opinions remained the fame as they were before. They had, it was true, oppofed Government upon the question of the Union; but these very Gentlemen had given their support to Government upon the Rebellion Bill, which it had been found neceffary to pass in Ireland. There were many perfons who had declared themselves in general as friends to the Union, but who thought this was not a proper time to bring it forward. He was not of that opinion; he thought that the circumftances of the times required the measure.He was the more inclined to think that Government did right in bringing forward the difcuffion of this fubject here, because it had failed in Ireland--because it was the duty of Ministers to explain to Ireland what were the grounds upon which they recommended this measure to the adoption of both countries. He was ftrongly inclined to think that the difcuffions which had taken place in this country, would tend in a very great degree to do away those prejudices which exifted in Ireland against the Union; he was convinced, that the speeches which had been made here would have very great weight in that country, and tend very much to allay the warmth which at prefent exifted there. He had to apologize to their Lordfhips for trefpaffing upon them fo long, but he could not fit ftill under the imputation which had been thrown out, and he hoped their Lordfhips were convinced that measures of feverity were not reforted to in Ireland till the neceflity of the cafe abfolutely called for them; that the Government of Ireland never authorized any cruelties, and that whenever complaints were made, the perfons guilty of fuch conduct were punished.- 7 H 2 He |