and not to effect the confolidation of the two kingdoms. He added, that if fuch a measure as this was carried by threats, this country would have ample caufe to repent it. It would give a perpetual pretence to rebellion, and he therefore deprecated the idea of a Union on fuch terms."

The Houfe divided on Mr. Pitt's motion, for the previous queftion 141; against it 25.-Majority 116.

When ftrangers were admitted

Mr. St. John observed that it had been admitted, he believed pretty generally, that the profperity of Ireland had increased in the courfe of late years; that was to fay, fince the declaration of the independence of the Irish Parliament; and therefore it was fair for him to prefume that fomething more ought to be adduced in fupport of the meafure of an Union, than merely to alledge the neceffity of it, or to fay that it will conduce to the further profperity of that country. The Right Hon. Gentleman, who came forward with his refolutions upon this fubject, stated on a former occafion, that neither this nor the other country could be placed in fuch a condition, as the prefent crifis of affairs demanded, with the Union of both. That made it neceffary to confider how far a Legislative Union would bring to the common fervice of the Empire a greater degree of force than it now poffeffes; many comparifons were made between the probable effect of this, and the certain effect of another Union, he meant the Union with Scotland; it was ftated, that Union had produced mutual ftrength-this did not appear to him to be a conclufive reafon, for it did not appear, nor had any body attempted to fhew, that Scotland might not have improved if the Union had not taken place: and fuppofe a Legiflative Union between this country and Ireland had taken place, and the state of the profperity of Ireland had been the fame as it is at this moment, it would then be just as fair to fay, that fuch state of profperity was owing to the Union, as now to fay, the Union produced all the profperity now felt in Scotland, or to fay, that the Union now propofed will have that effect. But he was not called upon to discuss this point; the view which he wished to take of the question was fimply this: whether in the prefent fituation of affairs, the House of Commons in Ireland having declared its fenfe against confidering the meafure at all, any good could refult from the agitation of it at this moment in the Parliament of England? Whether, fuppofing that the Union was, in itself, of the greateft of all poffible advantages to Ireland, it could produce any good to agitate the question now? In his opin

nion, as the Irish Houfe of Commons had expreffed anopinion unfavourable to the measure, it was unwife to enter at this time upon the difcuffion in this country. Whether, in point of fact, the Union itself would be forwarded at all by proceeding in the difcuffion? If the house refolved themselves into a committee, if they recorded their opinion on the refolutions which had been fubmitted to them, what was likely to be the confequence in Ireland? The Irish Houfe of Commons had adjourned to the prefent day; was it likely, that having given their opinion against the Union-was it probable, when they found that the Parliament of Great Britain had agreed to these refolutions, that they would not adopt a negative opinion? Was it not a felf-evident propofition, that thefe refolutions would tend, by the adoption of contrary ones in the Irifh Parliament, to produce an effect different from what was wifhed? If this were likely to be the cafe, ought not every fincere friend to Ireland, ought not every fincere friend to England, to paufe, and confider whether the object defired to be accomplished would not thereby be prevented. Was it not better to let the whole queftion reft for the prefent calmly, and the parties left to cool upon the subject, and brought forward hereafter, if it fhould appear to be neceflary, at a feafon adapted for that purpose?

The Right Hon. Gentlemen had ftated grounds why he wifhed the Houfe to adopt this meafure. He ftated several grounds. He took up the ground of objections to the meafure, and proceeded to anfwer thofe objections. The first was to the competency of the Irish Parliament; the fecond was the fuppofed attack which this measure made upon the honour of that Parliament; the third was to the effect it was alledged to be likely to produce on that country with regard to abfentees-Of the first it was needlefs for him to say any thing now in answer to the obfervations of the Right Hon. Gentleman: he had maintained the competency of the Irish House of Commons, and they had decided against it. The fecond was purely a queftion of feeling, and as fuch more likely to irritate the people of Ireland than any other question at the prefent moment, and as the House of Commons there had decided against it, the difcuffion of it here was peculiarly improper, for in their prefent ftate of mind it was likely to drive them to take some step that might be hoftile to reconciliation. This was, in his opinion, a point to be much attended to in the prefent critical condition of the whole Empire. But it was faid, that the critical fituation, and the interefts of the Empire, demanded the adoption of the measure; and we were

5 H 2

told

told that there was no statesman in Europe, no minister in any of the Luropean courts, who would not, if he heard that an Union with Ireland was in contemplation, fay, that the general ftrength and resources of the Empire would thereby be augmented. We were alfo told that there were none of the allies of the French republic who would not acknowledge that such a measure would tend to increase the vigour and profperity of the two kingdoms. Granting thofe arguments to be found in the view of an Union, what would they lead to, if the measure was attempted but failed in the progrefs of it? When it appeared that one branch of the Parliament of one of the two countries had exprefsly and diftin&tly negatived even the confideration of it, he would afk what conclufion was likely to be drawn, as well by our own allies as by the allies of the French republic?-Nothing, furely, but that attempt had weakened, inftead of strengthening the British Empire.

But it was faid that the bad state of Ireland required this measure, as a remedy to its evils.-He admitted, that indeed there were evils exifting in Ireland, but he was not yet convinced that fome other remedy might not be devised for those evils. He had heard that there were religious and other feuds in Ireland, but before this measure was carried, it was neceffary in his opinion, to fhew that there was no other remedy for the evil. It was contended in favour of the meafure, that an abfent Legislature was neceffary to provide a remedy for the various evils with which that kingdom was afflicted; but what were the proofs which could conduce the House to agree to that propofition? Were they on the authority of mere affertion to believe that nothing but an abfent legiflature could fupprefs party and religious feuds, or extinguifh hereditary animofities? It had been stated that the Roman Catholics in Ireland, poffibly if the Union took place, might have fome liberties which they do not at prefent enjoy. It were therefore cautioufly thrown out, and accompanied by fome hints, that it is to be a thing that may at fome diftance of time happen; it was ftated rather as a thing in profpect, than a thing now to be adopted. This was only exafperating the Irish Catholics, for by telling them that a favour may or may not be granted to them in the event of Union, they would regard it rather as a lure to induce them to affent to the Union, than as any serious intention to relieve them, and therefore they were the more like to oppose the measure on account of that fort of half promise of relief.

Much had been faid with regard to the danger of innova

797 tion. When Parliamentary Reform had been talked of, its opponents had always difcovered that the time was improper for it. If a propofition had been made to reform the expenditure, fuch innovations had been refifted upon the principle of their being attended with peril-But what was the character of the prefent measure? It was the Right Hon. Gentleman who was forcing the confideration of the queftion of reform in both countries; for it was impoffible for men, when they were told that the Parliament of Ireland was to be deftroyed, and one hundred or any given number of members to be fent to an united Parliament; it was impoffible, he faid, for any man not to take into his confideration whether that number of Members might not have been chofen in a better manner? If any time was ever improper for fuch a measure, the prefent time was highly improper for the prefent measure. Befides, if this plan of altering the Representation of the people was to take place in Ireland, upon what principle was it to be contended that a reform was not applicable to the Parliament of England? It was impoffible to fay that the one must be reformed, and the other must not be reformed, with any degree of confiftency. The argument in point of season was equally applicable to both, whatever might be the comparative merits of the reprefentation of the two countries. If it was faid that the people of Ireland were not duly reprefented, he was ready to affent to that affertion. He was ready to fay that inftead of the people being duly reprefented there, only the corrupt wifhes of a party were reprefented; but the argument upon the question of time was now ftronger than it ever was. He therefore called on all thofe who had always found the time improper for innovation, now to oppofe this meafure, for if any time. was improper this was certainly fo, and fome Gentlemen had held the danger of innovation to be fo great, that it were better for all the corruptions of a state to be allowed to remain, than that they should be made subject to any plan of general reform, and on that account had always regarded thofe who called for reform as little better than abettors of our enemies. All fuch perfons ought moft ftrenuously to oppose the measure now before them: for indeed it was a dangerous measure, if any innovation could be deemed fo, and might poffibly produce, inftead of preventing, rebellion in that country. He was fure that any man who would look to the fituation of Government at prefent, and who wifhed that that resistance should be made to the ambition of France, which he hoped would be made as long as that country ma

nifefted

That,

nifefted fuch projects of aggrandifement, muft defire that the full ftrength of Great Britain and Ireland should be applied to that purpose, and that it fhould not be diverted. He was not in the habit of beftowing praise upon the House of Commons of Ireland, but he would fay what he thought of them: he was of opinion that that Houfe of Commons, by the steps they had lately taken upon this measure, had fhewn themfelves much more worthy of being called the representatives of the people of Ireland, than he thought they were. That opinion had been grounded not fo much upon the opinion whether the Union was advantageous or not, but upon their having fhewn that they could fpeak out their fentiments, and that they were not to be dictated to by government. in point of principle, was in itfelf good, be the determination upon the measure wife or otherwife. Having faid this, he would frankly own that the question itself was doubtful to him at present. His opinion upon the Union was not yet very diftinctly formed. It was not neceffary for the present purpose that it fhould be diftinctly formed upon that question: it was fufficient for him to fay, that in the prefent crifis he thought it would be in the highest degree dangerous to the peace and fatety of the Empire, that a queftion of fuch magnitude and difficulty, and tending, as he feared, to the complete feparation betwixt the two countries, inftead of a clofer connexion, fhould be farther difcuffed in that House. If Ireland had agreed to the difcuffion of the subject, he fhould then have been called upon to deliver his opinion upon the measure; but here they had negatived even the idea of difcuffion, and that being the cafe he forefaw danger in perfifting any further now.-Upon thefe grounds he found it to be his duty to oppofe the motion that the Speaker do now leave the chair.

Mr. Grey." Sir, it was my wifh to have heard from the Right Hon. Gentleman on the other fide of the House, some further arguments in defence of a proceeding the most extraordinary, I will contend, in which a British Parliament ever was engaged. I fav, Sir, I did wifh to have heard fome further arguments from fome of the gentlemen oppofite to me, in fupport of that procceding, before I had delivered my own opinion to the Houfe. We are now called upon to difcufs, in a committee of the whole Houfe, the propofitions which have been fubmitted to us; we are called upon to difcufs them under circumftances the moft extraordinary, I repeat in which any great question of conftitutional policy was ever offered to the confideration of a British Parliament. I fay

we