upon the fuppofition of mere poffibilities? Have the Irish fhewn any difpofition to differ with us in queftions of peace or war? And here I cannot avoid faying, that I was furprized at the comments of a noble Lord upon what Mr. Grattan had faid; that he felt this fo much, that the British nation having declared for war, Ireland was left without a choice. Now, if Mr. Grattan, and thofe moft attached to the Independence of Ireland, declared that Ireland could hardly have a choice as to peace and war; and if little or no danger was likely to arife of difference on fuch fubjects, was it not the part of a wife man, in such a season, to abftain from bringing forward fuch a propofition? Sir, when other innovations have been propofed, the dangers of the times have invariably been urged. I fay, then, what calls upon the Right Hon. Gentleman to bring forward this meafure now? Having faid thus much, I have little more to add. If I have made out that the evils complained of have not originated in the feparation of the Legiflatures; that the remedy propofed is not likely to produce the end defired; and that dangers are not likely to happen from feparate Legiflatures; if I have made out these things, why, I afk, are we called upon to agitate the question? Are there not great difficulties in agitating it? The wit of man cannot devife any good which this difcuffion can produce, and the mischief may be incalculable. What is the ground upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman proposes it? He thinks it a narrow one, when I fay I reft upon the decifion of the Irish Parliament. Sir, I fay, if I faw great difcontents likely to arise by the agitation of this measure, I fhould deprecate all further difcuffion. But the cafe is much stronger after the decifion of the Irish Parliament. What then is the ground upon which the Right Hon. Gentleman propofes the meafure! Sir, I have always obferved, that he is never fo convinced of the neceffity of any thing as when he is forced to give it up. But it feems that the decifion of the Irish Parliament has made it more neceffary for him, in order to juftify himself, and, he added, the Parliament of Great Britain, to explain clearly the general outline of his plan. But he had alfo a further hope that it might ultimately be adopted. In the first place it is fair to ask him, what additional information the Irish have gained from thefe refolutions which they had not before? And here we come to the inducement, the great advantage to the trade of Ireland. An equal participation of the benefits of trade must have been known to the Irish when the fubject was first brought forward. They can No. 21. 5 K

know

know no more from the detail. But, Sir, if it was neceffary to open the plan, that is done. The refolutions have undoubtedly gone over to Ireland. All that can be obtained, is obtained by the printing of them. I defy the Right Hon. Gentleman to ftate any other advantage. And may not difcuffion tend to irritate?

We have already feen fomewhat of the effects produced by the difperfion of the Right Hon. Gentleman's eloquent fpeech. The jealousy of the Irish Parliament was immediately roufed, and a call of the Houfe of Commons there has been refolved upon. Seeing then that the agitation of this measure at prefent can do no good, will you, with your eyes open to the danger, provoke the farther difcuffion of it? Sir, to use the words of my Hon. Friend, I would, as a friend to the Union, deprecate any further discussion of the measure. On what were the hopes of the French founded? On the feparation of the Legiflatures? No, Sir, on the difcontents of the people. Is that difaffection appeased? If the difaffection of the people of Ireland be not appeased, why run the risk of adding one man more to the number of thofe who may ftir up rebellion, and encourage a fresh Invafion by France? With a view to the general prefervation of the empire, and as individually interested to maintain the connection between the two countries, I would deprecate the prosecution of this measure, as I cannot but view it to be furrounded with great danger. I will here leave the argument. I have attempted to fhew that the Right Hon. Gentleman has not made out his cafe, and that he has produced no fufficient ground. I have fpoken lefs with the hope that I fhall produce the defired effect, than from a fenfe of the magnitude of the occafion, and from a wish to maintain peace. Sir, we are furrounded with great perils and dangers. Under the prefent circumftances of Europe, I have little idea that a negociation for peace would be fuccefsful. But ftill, ftill I am an advocate for endeavouring to avert the evils, by concluding, if poflible, a peace on safe and honourable terms. The Right Hon. Gentleman, I fee, is attentive to what I fay, and I will explain. I behold, with dread and apprehenfion, not only the aggrandifement of France, but the principle upon which it is founded; and I fhould be glad to fupport any feasible plan for reducing that power within fuch limits as would be confiftent with the fafety of Europe. But, Sir, from all I can fee, there is lefs to be hoped from any attack upon France than from a confolidation of the resources of Great Britain. I mean a con

folidation

folidation of heart and of affections.-Sir, let an Act of Union be paffed with all the folemnity poffible; it will not, in my opinion, add to your ftrength; and therefore I fhall give my vote against your leaving the chair.

Mr. Dundas.-Sir, the question we have now to confider is, Whether the Legislatures of the two Countries may not take fuch measures as appear to them the best calculated to promote the interefts of the two Countries, and the general fecurity of the Empire? In treating with the Parlament of Ireland, I cannot confider it as attacking the independence of that Parliament, any more than I confider the treaty refpecting the Union withIreland as having violated the independence of the Parliament of that country. I flatter myfelf I shall be able not only to correct the multitude of mifrepresentations which I have heard this night, but also to prove that every thing which the Hon. Gentleman opposite to me has urged, refpecting the fettlement in 1782, is totally irrelevant to the prefent queftion. So far from difputing the validity of that fettlement, as vefting Ireland with all the rights of an independent kingdom, I am willing to recognize them, not as an independence newly acquired, but as fubfifting for a period of three hundred years, and even coeval with the former independent Legislature of Scotland, with which in the course of my argument I mean to compare it. Having ftated fo much, I thall now apply myfelf to the immediate and proper subject for confideration; but here I must complain of the manner in which the Hon. Gentlemen conduct their oppofition to it. Instead of oppofing the measure in limine, it would be fitter for them to wait for the Report, and not to force a difcuffion of the whole question in a preliminary debate, as they have now done, without giving thofe opportunities for explanation that muft arife in a Committee, and which are fo effentially neceffary to a full comprehenfion of its merits. The line of argument adopted by Gentlemen on the other fide has reduced us to a dilemma, and naturally brings on the difcuffion of the whole queftion of the Union-but that, Sir, I apprehend is not at prefent at iffue. The limited view of the queftion regularly before us is not fairly handled by them-they wish to exclude us from the opportunity of going into a Committee, where mutual explanations can best be given, and any ftriking or well-founded objections be rendered palatable: however, I have no objection to meet them on the subject in any way they think proper; and confidering it in their points of view, all I can gather 5 K2

from

from my own recollection, from my understanding, my fources of information, the Hiftory of Ireland, or my own perfonal experience fuggeft, inferences in direct contradiction to the principles advanced by the Honourable 'Gentlemen. I learn from them, that the fituation of Ireland has been of late years, and is now, one of difcord, diftraction, and danger-that there exifts at this moment a widely-extended confpiracy-a confpiracy infecting generally the mafs of the lower orders of the people, and fome of a higher defcription, the confeffed and avowed object of which is, the feparation of the two Countries. The once popular cry of Catholic Emancipation and Parliamentary Reform is now dropped. Their plans are notoriously founded on the principle of dividing the Countries. But the real question now at iffue is-Whether the diseases from whence the prefent distracted and unhappy state of Ireland proceeds, are most likely to be cured by the prefent fystem of Government in Ireland, by its feparate, and as they call it, " Independent Parliament," or by an incorporated Union of the Parliaments of both Kingdoms. On this true state of the queftion I am willing to take an impartial and comprehenfive view of the fubject; at the fame time nothing can be farther from my mind than any illiberal reflection on the Parliament of Ireland, either collectively, or on its individual Members. I mean to speak of it, formed and con'ftituted as it is. And in viewing the circumftances of that Kingdom, the first thing that strikes me is, the great and fundamental diffentions in that Country, arifing from Religious diftinctions; and this does not furprife me; for I underftand, from authority on which I can rely, that, no matter for the precife numbers, but, that three-fourths of the people, at leaft, are of a different religious perfuafion from thofe to whom the Legiflative and Executive Authority is confided, who are conftituted from the remaining one-fourth. Do I then throw any illiberal afperfion on the Parliament of Ireland, when I fay the governed can have no confidence in the governors? That the governed must feel that it is a Proteftant Parliament, and that they are Catholics? Is this, or not, a fair defcription of that part of the fituation of Ireland? There can hardly exift in human nature a stronger ground for diffention or animofity. It is impoflible, therefore, that a Government fo conftituted can enjoy the confidence of the great mafs of the Irifh people. The majority muft feel that they are totally excluded from a fhare in the Government, folely on account of their being Catholics. By this I do not mean to infinuate that the Catholics

Catholics are ill used by the Proteftants, but ftill the former
muft feel strong fenfations of jealousy; and those religious
diftinctions are notoriously maintained by the Irish Parli
ament, conftituted in its prefent form. To do away these
grounds of diffention, I maintain that a United Parliament.
of both Kingdoms would be more adequate, and more con-
fiftent in its nature and difpofitions, and to bring thofe ran-
cours and animofities to a happy conclufion. And those
ends, Sir, however defirable, would not be the only ones
which a United Parliament would produce; but to every
purpose of internal regulation and domeftic improvement in
the affairs of Ireland. It was a most erroneous view of the
subject, and one which ought to be laid afide, that there
would be an end of Irish liberty fhould an incorporate Union
take place. Was a Parliament, with precifely a certain
number of Lords and Commons, neceflary to conftitute the
freedom of Ireland? Surely a fair and fuitable proportion,
both of the Ariftocracy and the Reprefentative Body, incor-
porated with the Parliament of Great Britain, would for
every purpose of legiflative function, be as much an Irish
Parliament, as a feparate legiflature eftablished at Dublin.
A Parliament compofed of English, of Scots, and of Irifh
Members, would be fully as conftitutional, fully as much
the Representatives of Ireland, as interested to watch over
and to maintain its profperity, as a feparate Parliament.-
To every purpofe and to every end where the functions of
Parliament can apply in the concerns of Ireland, it would
be equally, if not more efficacious, than the Parliament of
Ireland, as now conftituted; and confidering it ftill in the
Yame view, I may carry the argument a step farther, and say,
'that it would be more extenfively efficacious, with refpect to
the concerns of Ireland, becaufe it would participate in these
general powers, which the British Parliament are now ex-
clufively invefted with, in regard to the general interefts of
the Empire at large. And here, Sir, I must remark that
Gentlemen talk of the Parliament of Ireland as if it were
wholly compofed of the two Eftates refident in that King-
dom.-Did they forget the third Eftate, the Regal Autho-
rity, refident in Great Britain, and that the control of this
Executive is confidered as one of the greateft privileges of
the British Parliament; and one which it would be the most
reluctant to give up, that of controlling and advising the
Executive power. This leads to a question, which I fhall
put-Whether the Parliament of Ireland, as now constitu-
ted, has fo great a control over the Executive Branch of the
Conftitution,