measure under the operation of which the Catholics was to be fubdued, and the Proteftant intereft firmly maintained→→→ nothing but a measure of fecurity to the Government of Ireland against the Jacobin Catholics of Ireland, would ever meet with his fupport. The country was at prefent divided into two parties-one comprised under the heads of the commercial and landed interefts; the other, must be watched-be watched with vigilance and not without dread, was formed of the majority of the population of Ireland, its phyfical ftrength, and the Catholics, corrupted by the principles of modern French Jacobinifm. The first of these parties decidedly favoured Union: the fecond, and that too the most formidable, as decidedly oppofed Union. They were animated by different fentiments. In fpeaking of the Catholics of Ireland he certainly did not fpeak from any particular information refpecting them; he had no connexion with them; but he got his knowledge of them from common fources of information. He drew it from Lord Clare's speech, from Dr. Duigenan's pamphlet, and from those authorities, he inferred, that the mafs of the Catholics were hoftile to the connexion with this country. He wished very much that this plan had contained one of two things, which would have made it diftinct and definite, viz. either that it fhould have proposed to have emancipated the Catholics, or that a final negative fhould have been opposed to their pretenfions. Either of these modes might have been confidered as calculated to remove thofe dangers now to be apprehended from the difpofition of the Catholics. The medium adopted in this plan did neither of these effectually, and promised the advantages of neither. He did not with to purfue either of thefe plans in the extreme, though the prefent courfe between them he did not approve. With respect to the independence of Ireland, he certainly thought that it was more to be afcribed to the volunteers than to the exertions of any men in Parliament. If it was thought neceffary to grant farther immunities to the Catholics, the Parliament of Ireland was competent for it; but he thought that they had granted indulgences to the Catholics at a time when the latter were not fitted to receive them. Another great objection he had to this measure was, that it would be final, for if hereafter it should not be found to answer the objects for which it was adopted, there would be no means of undoing it. With refpect to the Catholics, he thought there ought to be a material diftinction in the mode of treating them. He was of opinion that thofe who had -- shewn fhould be refponfible to the Parliament of England for their conduct with refpect to Ireland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that the Honourable General misunderstood both him and his Right Hon. Friend, if he conceived them to allude to any thing that paffed previoufly to the bringing in the Bill for the repeal of the 6th of George I. or the Bill for the modification of Poyning's Law. In all they faid, more particularly in all they faid of the intentions of Government, they certainly had a reference to what paffed fubfequent to the bringing in the Bill for the repeal of the 6th of George I. But the Honourable General would not only find himself mistaken in this, but if he chofe to look into the subject, he would fee that he was mistaken in what he had itated, that the Noble Duke, after the modification of Poyning's Law, was of opinion that the power refpecting the ftopping the Irish Bills, and of affixing the Great Seal of England to them, was a fufficient link, and that it precluded the neceffity of any further adjustment. It was fubfequent to this, that his Grace was of opinion that a farther arrangement was neceffary to prevent the inconveniencies of clathing legislat .res; an arrangement, not of a commercial, but of a political nature. This he meant to ftate with pofitive certainty upon the authority of written documents; an authority, which he had offered to communicate to the Honourable General. These papers were not loofe ftatements, but authentic documents, which fhewed the opinion of the Noble Duke to be directly the reverse of that advanced by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He renewed that offer now, and he would venture to fay, if he had availed himself of it, he would not have come down on this day and have expressed the opinion he had done. This he begged leave to state in the moft peremptory and pofitive manner. At the fame time he could not but exprefs his aftonifhment, that upon fo important a part of his life the Honourable General's opinion was fo contrary to the real ftate of the cafe. General Fitzpatrick faid, he ftill believed his recollection to be accurate, though he did not doubt that the Right Honourable Gentleman was convinced that he stated the fact correctly. He was forry the papers could not be laid before the Houfe, becaufe, if he did confult them and adhered to his former ftatement, there could be no judges between them, to afcertain which was in the right. But he had a perfect conviction that his statement of the fact was quite correct; though he did not mean to fay that the Right Honourable Gentleman had been guilty of mifreprefentation. The point was one upon which he thought he could be not wrong; and he was of opinion, that the fentiments both of the Noble Duke and himself were, that the modification of Poyning's Law was fufficient. Without meaning, therefore, any thing difrespectful to the Right Honourable Gentleman, he retained his opinion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer declared it to be so aftonifhing, that the Honourable General should forget the fact, that he did not wonder at his being flow in abandoning his opinion. He begged it not to be thought that the Hon. Member could not have the power of referring to the written, documents. As he had seen them fifteen years ago, it could be no breach of truft to fhew them to the Honourable General again. If therefore he would accept the means of conviction, he took upon himself to fay, that he fhould not retain his prefent opinion. It was even fubfequent, he believed, to the paffing of the Bill for modifying Poyning's Law; and on the eve of the prorogation of Parliament, that the Duke of Portland expreffed his hope that he should be able to put off the prorogation, (when all the Members for the independence of Ireland were completed) for the purpose of bringing forward fome measure for a farther fettlement. Not being disappointed in that hope, his Grace fuffered the prorogation to take place. General Fitzpatrick faid, that he would avail himself of the offer to infpect the documents alluded to. But fuppofe that he fhould be of the fame opinion after he had read them, it would be aukward, after he had done fo, to ftate to the Houfe that he was ftill of the fame opinion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer obferved, that the Hon. General might feel perhaps fome difficulty in being convinced that he was wrong; but he was fure he would feel more difficulty, after he had read the documents, in being. convinced that he was not wrong. He would pledge himfelf to nothing more; but if the Noble Duke had no objection to their being communicated to the Houfe; and if he fhould be fo fortunate as to obtain His Majefty's confent, he fhould have no objection to going the length of letting the House be in poffeffion of the means of forming their opinion upon the fubject. The House now divided For receiving the Report, No. 24. Majority for the Motion 6 E 120 104 The The Report was accordingly brought up by Mr. Douglas, and the Refolutions were read a first time. They were ordered to be read a fecond time, and after the firft refolution was agreed to. Mr. Tierney objected to any further proceeding on them, on the ground that they entered too minutely into the details which went to commit the Houfe, fo as to deprive them of the power of altering their opinion on any future occafion, fhould fuch a measure appear juft and neceflary. Were Gentlemen to pledge themfelves in that way, much might be loft by it, but it could not be productive of any one advantage. To the fourth Refolution he had ftrong grounds of objection, and he would not confent to the introduction of a fingle Irish bishop into the British Houfe of Peers. But it was by no means impoffible that circumstances might occur to make him change his opinion. With respect to the number of Lords and Commoners, it was a point not clearly afcertained, but it was known from good authority that the number of Temporal Lords was fixed at twenty-fix, of the Spiritual at fix, and of the Commoners at one hundred. It was in his mind fufficient for this country to evince its difpofition for an Union, but to court a treaty with a party which turned a deaf ear to it, was by no means confiftent either with the dignity of Parliament, or the intereft of the country. Mr. Tierney concluded with faying, that he fhould confider himself bound to follow the inftructions of his conftituents, if they difapproved of the propofed commercial arrangements and regulations. The Speaker fuggefted, that as the Honourable Gentleman. objected to thefe refolutions, the way will be to move that the confideration of them be deferred to a diftant day. Mr. Tierney accordingly moved, that they be taken into confideration this day three months. Mr. Douglas faid, that he fhould have regretted the paffing of the 1ft Refolution, if it had not been followed up by all the other Refolutions. He had always been decidedly of opinion, that nothing but an incorporative Union could be of effential and permanent fervice to both countries. Even from the time of James the First, that opinion had been uniformly maintained and generally received. As to the particular number of Members, the Houfe were not then called upon to pledge themselves to a certain and precise statement, but he had no fcruple in declaring that, in his own opinion, the number mentioned of 100 was a proper one. The Honourable Gentleman had declared, that he fhould fhould act in conformity to the inftructions of his conftituents with refpect to the commercial regulations. From fuch a doctrine, he for his part begged leave to diffent, as it was founded upon the principle, that local interests were to be acceded to in preference to the general interests of the nation at large. The abfurdity of the doctrine was evident from the confideration that there was no general regulation, however important, which did not in fome degree militate against the locality of intereft. With refpect to the fear which the Honourable Member for Coventry might entertain for his conftituents, he thought that the plan, if paffed, would occafion fuch joy, and produce fuch a confumption. of the manufactures of that city, as to make the fortunes of the manufacturers. In the year 1792 it had been faid in the Irish Parliament, "I warn you against an Union. Why? Because it will be attended with a participation of British debt, and not of British commerce." Such language was ftill held out; and therefore it was a strong argument for paffing the refolutions, and thereby proving to Ireland that that opinion was an erroneous one, and that we did not defire Ireland to participate in the debt of Great Britain, but that we did hold out to her a participation of our com merce. Mr. W. Bird faid, that he believed the manufacturers were better judges of their own interefts than the Hon. Gentleman. He never had faid, that the plan might not be eventually good for the country; but he thought the refolutions went farther than was neceffary, for they tied England hand and foot, and laid her at the mercy of the Irish Parliament. Mr. Ryder faid, that if the wishes of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) were adopted, what would be faid? The Irish might fay, that after having brought in an extremely advantageous plan, the English Parliament stopped fhort, and in order to inveigle the Irish Parliament, would not state any terms.-The Honourable Gentleman's idea of confiftency was a curious one. To give a fair vote, either for or against a meafure, a man must be a moral agent. There was neither virtue nor vice in a piece of mechanism. Upon the Honourable Member's idea, he might vote on Monday one way, and on Tuefday another way, provided he received inftructions from his conftituents. Mr. Tierney faid, that his own idea was, when he took the truft from his conftituents, he contributed their fhare to the public interefts. His first duty was to them, his ge6 E 2 neral |