Mr. Alexander reported from the Committee of Supply of the preceding day. Report agreed to, and leave given to bring in bills purfuant thereto.

NAVAL ABUSES.

Mr. Whitbread role, he faid, to move for certain papers relative to the late vifitation of the dock-yards, which had taken place by order of the Houfe. It appeared to him abfolutely neceffary, that all poffible information should immediately be laid before the Houfe on this fubject; and he could fee no objection which the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty (who had hitherto ferved his country with fo much advantage to it, and honour to himself) could poffibly entertain, relative to what he was about to propofe. In profecuting the naval inquiry, that noble Lord had thought proper to vifit the different dock-yards in the kingdom, along with the Commiffioners. Since their report was made out and prefented to the Houfe, it had occafioned much converfation, and much obloquy had been incurred. There was in the first page of the report now before the Houfe, not only a direct allufion to the minutes made out by the commiffioners on that vifitation, but likewise to an opinion relative to the conduct of that noble Lord and his colleagues on that occafion. It contains alfo a statement of the alterations and amendments which they found neceifary in the feveral departments which they fully investigated. These circumftances, when properly brought to light, ought moft undoubtedly to have great weight, in fhewing the beneficial confequences which muft refult from the noble Lord's vifitation and exertions for the public intereft. It was certainly true, however, that fome moft grofs delinquencies had been found out in the courfe of that investigation, and in his opinion it was most proper and expedi ent that the delinquents fhould be brought to punishment. He therefore begged leave to move, that copies of the minutes made out by the Lords of the Admiralty, on the late vifitation of the dock yards, as alfo any correfpondence relative thereto, be laid before the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he was extremely forry in being under the neceffity of rifing for the purpofe of refifting the hon. Gentleman's motion. He did to, both from the principle of propriety and juftice. He would have expected, that the hon. Gentleman, inftead of waiting for objections to this motion, would have ftated fome reafons to induce the Houfe to confent to acquiefce in and coun. Bb 2

tenance

tenance his propoful. It feemed to him to reft on no parliamentary grounds; and it was on that account, befides others, that he was induced him to think himself bound to refift the motion. He heartily concurred in the anxiety which the hon. Gentleman had expreffed, to vindicate the conduct of the noble Lord and his colleagues; but he must confess, that his anxiety was fomewhat more limited than that expreffed by the hon. Gentleman, because he could not bring himself to imagine, that such a motion was neceffary to be made on the prefent occafion, in order to vindicate a character which, even in the particular circumftance alluded to, already stood fo high in the public eftimation. That confideration could not of itself, therefore, be ftated as a fufficient reafon for a motion of that kind, for it was neceffary on all occafions, when a Member was moving for the production of official documents, that he fhould hold out fome proper parliamentary ground or inducement. The hon. Member might, in the prefent inftance, have stated, that he meant to elucidate fome fubfequent proceeding, or any object he had in view to accomplish; but nothing of this kind has even been hinted at. He would wish to state the fituation in which the House now ftood, relative to the matter in queftion. It had appointed a commiffion to inquire into all abuses of the navy; and were this motion to be countenanced, it would be doing nothing less than taking into its own hands what had formerly been entrusted to a Committee. If it had appeared that that Committee had been inclined either to overlook or neglect any particularthus committed to them, then he confeffed there would be a neceffity for inftituting fuch an inquiry, in order to determine whether fuch perfons fhould be continued or not. The hon. Gentleman had, however, expreffed no doubt of theirconduct, and confequently he had not expreffed a with that fuch powers fhould be taken out of their hands; but he had ftated, that it appeared, from the minutes alluded to, that there had been fome great mifconduct-fome delinquents' that ought to be punished. If there were delinquencies, however, it was for the purposes of discovering and punishing fuch that the Commiffioners were appointed. As to the firft Lord of the Admiralty, whofe conduct had been spoken of on this occafion, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer). could state, as a certainty, that it was the firft with of that noble Lord's heart, that all the tranfactions in which he was concerned, and all his conduct in thefe matters fhould

be,

be, as early as poffible, exhibited to the public and the world. He, however, begged leave to oppofe fuch a procedure, notwithstanding that noble Lord's prefent inclination, and to discharge the duty incumbent upon him in the prefentinftance, on mere parliamentary grounds; and to prevent fuch a disclosure taking place at prefent, without proper reafons affigned, he would move the previous question.

Capt. Markham faid, that on this occafion he found himfelf very aukwardly fituated, both with refpect to himself and the hon. Gentleman who had made the motion. Calumniated as the Board of Admiralty had been, according to the reports in circulation, which attributed to them grofs acts of injustice, in turning out perfons from their fituations without affigning any proper caufe, he was inclined to think that the papers fought for fhould be produced; for he thought that it was impoffible for the Board of Admiralty to do their public duty with advantage, were they thus to be continually abufed in the ditcharge of it; and he therefore expreffed the wifh of the noble Lord himfelf, as well as of the public. If there were delinquents, thofe delinquents should be punished, and that too immediately; for engaged as we now were in a state of active warfare, fuch an investigation could not come too early. It had been, he thought, already retarded too long, to the great inconvenience of the public, and therefore he should vote for the immediate production of what was alluded to in the motion.

Sir William Elford faid, that it had been mentioned in regard to him, that he had lately made a motion in order to criminate the Board of Admiralty, relative to the difmiffion of a Mr. Marshall from his fituation, and that that motion was not feconded. He did not know from what cause that had fo happened, but he affured the Houfe that he would. rather be placed in that fituation, than in the ftate of thus criminating perfons who ftood perfectly unconvicted, and the accufations against them unanfwered. He would have fupported the prefent motion, had it been not only for the production of thofe minutes, but all fubfequent proceedings of the Board of Admiralty in confequence of that investigation, for it would then have been propofing the means by. which the House could form a judgment how far the conduct of the board was confiftent with what was alleged. No man was more inclined to bestow panegyrics and the highest compliments on the noble Lord and his coadjutors than he was, because he thought that the public owed much to

them

them in their military capacity; but he was forry to fay, that it was not fo in regard to their civil capacity. He imputed nothing improper to them, however, even in this reIpect, but thought that the injury to the public had arisen from the nature of the investigation itself. There were, he faid, fome parts of the proceedings which ought not even to be repeated. It was highly competent to reprefent any general abufe, but not to accufe individuals on ex parte evidence; and if there really were delinquents, they ought moft undoubtedly to be punished, but that object must be accomplished in a proper manner.

Sir Charles Pole agreed with the hon. Baronet, and thought that it was moft improper to accufe perfons on ex parte evidence, as had been done in the prefent inftance.

Sir Andrew Hammond faid, that the Board of Admiralty deserved great praife for the attention with which they made the invefligation: and they had fat no less than fix or feven hours every day for that purpofe. But he was forry to inform the Houfe, that from the moment they came into power there had been fo ftrong a prejudice, that it was impoffible to go on as things now ftood. Many matters were changed from what they were formerly. The commiffion had now fat, and it was faid that they have all the information that can be given them. It was ftrange to demand papers which were already in the hands of the commiffioners; but he was told it was only copies of papers which were wanted. The Navy Board and the Victualling Board were defirous of the matter being tried. Thefe boards should be heard in their juftification. It was furely fair to do so, and for them to have a copy of the report; then let them be called on to make their answer to it. At the fame time, fuch a confufed department as the Navy Board would, no doubt, expect a confiderable degree of candour in this Houfe, if what they were charged with were mere omiffions and no mifconduct. A circumftance in the first report certainly appeared a confiderable neglect, but that would be ftated in their anfwer. So far as he himfelf was concerned, he was ready to go into it completely.

Mr. Courtenay ftated, that he acquiefed in the prefent motion the more particularly, as one great motive of it was, in order more clearly to demonftrate to the public, what feemed to be the general fenfe of the Houfe, how much they were indebted to the noble Lord at the head of the Admiralty for his conduct in this affair. It was highly honourable

honourable to that noble Lord, and all his friends, and for his part he could not difcover the nicety of that real parliamentary ground which had been stated in oppofition to the motion; for it appeared to him to be a ftrange dotrine to ftate, that it would be improper to place that noble Lord in too high a point of eftimation. Every man, however, was, luckily, pretty well convinced of his (Loid Vincent's) real character, and it was furely to be reckoned a fingularly great honour to the country, that there was, at least, one of its Minifters who was looked up to, even on the continent of Europe, with fome degice of confidence, approbation, and refpect.

Admiral Berkeley commented upon the acknowledged difference between the two boards, which he thought of the utmoft importance. At the fame time, he was convinced, that the whole matter of inquiry was already lodged in proper hands; and confidering the prefent fituation of public affairs, he thought this was a very improper time for inftituting innovations, with regard to matters which were fo likely to be well conducted.

The Attorney General said, that any inquiry of this nature ought, in the first instance, to be fubmitted to the House by the commiffioners appointed by Parliament. The very minutes alluded to were at prefent under the confideration of those commiffioners, and their attention was at this mo→ ment directed towards an inquiry into thofe very objects. Such being the cafe, he would afk, would it not be highly prepofterous for the Houfe to enter into a fcrutiny of thofe very matters which they had found expedient to fubmit to the charge and confideration of a felect few? If the House did fo, it would juft amount, in other words, to withdraw ing the authority repofed in that Committee. He could fee no reason for thefe minutes being brought forward, in order to be made the foundation of criminal profecutions by the House, while fuch profecutions, if neceffary, would be more properly conducted by the Board of Admiralty, whether they were of a trivial or henious nature. It was by the commif fioners reporting their progrefs in those matters to the House, that the House and the public were to be informed of the whole circumitances of the cafe prefently under difcuffion : if it should then appear that there has been any defect in the conduct of thefe commiffioners, it would not be reckoned unfeasonable to bring fuch accufations forward. For thefe reafons he thought that the prefent was a most unreasonable application, and would be prejudicial to the ends of justice.

He