lot, volunteers, and fubftitutes. Now a fubftitute is a man receiving a bounty, upon the fame principle as a man inlifting for the line, and I fee no reafon why his fervice should be limited to home defence; if then, there be no hardship in the cafe, it might be advifable to extend his fervice, and thereby increase the difpofable force of the country. His Royal Highnefs concluded with moving an amendment, for extending the fervice of the fubilitute to any place what

ever.

Lord Hobart faid, he had explained the nature of the meafure when he first introduced it to the Houfe. The principle of it was to raise an additional force for home defence, but the amendment propofed by the illuftrious Duke was contrary to that principle, as it went to apply it to foreign fervice: It was further objectionable, as it would make individuals bear the expence of furnithing recruits for the regular army. It was alfo to be observed, that the bill contained a claufe for permitting any man raifed under it to enter the line. Here, then, was an opportunity opened for increasing our regular force, and the facility which it afforded, might be defeated by the amendment. It was the intention of Government that the force propofed thould be raised immediately, and the bill was framed in the manner most likely to obtain that end. If, however, any difficulty or obstruction fhould be raised, by making the terms of fervice harder, and confequently rendering perfons reluctant to enter into it, that object would be in a confiderable degree defeated. Befides, he could affure the illuftrious Duke, that arrangements were then making, by which a larger proportion of the force to be raised by the bill would be incorporated with regiments of the line. Such regiments, no doubt, must be of course limited to home fervice, but fill there would remain a fufficient number for the purpofe of foreign fervice. For all thefe reafons he found himfelf under the neceffity of oppofing the amendment.

The Earl of Mira was of opinion, that the true way of providing for defence would be to increase the regular army. By having a large difpofable force for foreign operations, we fhould oblige France to garrifon all her potts, and prepare for her defence upon all her points. If a contrary policy fhould be purfued, the would have nothing to do but to collect all her immenfe means, and choofe her opportunity to invade The refult of this must be, that fome of her attempts

us.

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muft prove fuccefsful, and though perhaps only upon a confined fcale, the evil would be incalculable. Thefe being his tentiments, he should approve the amendment of the illuftrious Duke, as it tended to increase our difpofable force. The claufe in the bill would be totally nugatory in that refpest, as it was not compulfory, but merely left an option not likely to be adopted. By the amendment the object propofed would be fecured, but as the claufe ftood, its attainment would be very uncertain. In his opinion, our beft policy would be to increase the troops of the line. He knew a brigade confifting of four regiments, and he would venture to affert, that the whole brigade could not turn out 600 men fit to bear arms. The arrangement alluded to by the noble Secretary of State, he clearly understood from his defcription. He prefumed it was to fill up the fkeleton regiments of the line with the new levies. He admitted, that when a parcel of recruits were mixed with one or two hundred veterans, they might be brought into a complete ftate of difcipline in three or four months. But what would be the confequencé of the arrangement fuggefted? The skeleton regiments, fo filled up, must be confined to home fervice, or it it is to be fent abroad, the part belonging to the army of referve must be taken away, and its place fupplied with raw recruits. The amendment of the illuftrious Duke, therefore, as tending to facilitate the increafe of our regular force, had his approbation. We had a militia, a fupplementary militia, and now comes a third clafs of domestic force. The price of the substitutes has in confequence rifen very high, and therefore it was impoffible but that the raifing of the prefent force muft obftruct the recruiting for the line.

Lord Mulgrave declared, that if the Government had propofed a levy of 100,000 men instead of 50,000, as proposed by this bill, the measure should have his hearty concurrence. He could not, however, approve of the amendment moved by the illuftrious Duke (Cumberland), because he considered it would be a heavy and unexpected tax on the perfons drawn by ballot, who would be under additional difficulty and expence in finding fubftitutes. He was ftrongly of opinion, that the defence of this country would be best conducted by offenfive operations after we fhould have provided for our own fecurity; "but the best reliance would always be in the fpirit of the people. The energy of Englishmen could not be doubted when they thought their country was in danger; and, during the laft war, there was fufficient proof that men

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of military habits would not object to unlimited service, when the occafion required it; for very foon after the paffing of the bill for empowering militiamen to enter into regulars, notwithstanding the reluctance of the officers to part with thofe men whom they were at the trouble of training, we had an acceffion of 40,000 additional men, which enabled our armies to perform exploits which equalled the proudest times of the prowefs of the nation.It would not, he believed, be deemed orderly in him, to refer to difcuffions in another place; but he was free to confess he never heard nor read of a better fyftem both of offence and defence, than was difplayed on the occafion he alluded to; and he made no doubt but the enemy would find, on making the experiment, that there was much more military skill and science in this country, than they might have been led to imagine.

His Royal Highnefs the Duke of Cumberland explainedthat conceiving a powerful attack upon the enemy at home, to be beft fuited to the dignity, and confiftent with the antient renown of this country; but that he never meant that compulfory, unlimited fervice, fhould be extended to men drawn by ballot. What he fubmitted was, that perfons entering as fubftitutes, and receiving money for doing so, should be on the fame footing as the recruits for the line, who alfo received a bounty. However, as this propofal did not feem to accord with the general feelings of the Houfe, he should not perfift in his amendment, if their Lordships would allow him to withdraw it.

Earl Grofvenor was entering into an elaborate jutification of the measures proposed by his Majesty's Minifters, when he was called to order by

Lord Mulgrave-who faid, that the difcuffion which the noble Lord feemed difpofed to engage in, was not strictly applicable to the question before the House.

Earl Grovefnor then put in his claim to take another opportunity of going more at large into the fubject.

A long and very defultory converfation then enfaed, in which Lords Mulgrave, Darnley, Weftmoreland, Moira, Hobart, Camden, and feveral others took a part, but which turned principally on points of explanation.

Lord Mulgrave thought the defence of the country was the principal object to be confulted at prefent. As to filling up the old regimen's, that may be made the fubject of confideration to those within whofe department it more immediately rested: he had the highest respect for the opinions delivered VOL. IV. 1802-3. 3 G

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in the House by high military characters; but however he might wish for a large difpofable force, he conceived that it would be time enough to employ it when the country was out of danger.

Lord Carlife thought the measure rather inadequate to the objects propofed, but would not object to the bill, because he thought no time fhould be loft in proceeding upon this preliminary measure. His Lordfhip was then proceeding to arraign the Minifters for their tardiness and want of an early difplay of fpirit, when he was alfo called to order.

Lord Darnley defended the train of arguments which the noble Lord was embracing, and was pursuing a fimilar courfe, when he was called to order by

The Lord Chancellor, who faid, that his obfervations had no immediate reference to the queftion before the House.

Lord Darnley faid, he did not think himself by any means deviating from the queftion, and again renewed the same line of oblervation.

The Lord Chancellor again interrupted him, and complained that the ftrict orders of the House were very feldom complied with. On many occafions, when he attempted to enforce them, he was forry to find that he was not fufficiently fupported; and if noble Lords continued to go on in the fame way, it would be neceffary to determine, before the end of the prefent feffion, whether the Houfe fhould abide by its orders or neglect them.

Lord Darnley then faid, that he should take occafion, in another stage, to deliver his fentiments more at large upon the fubject.

Lord Hobart conceived, that the fituation in which he tood, entitled him to particular attention, while he attempted to explain the general merits of the question.

The Lord Chancellor called him alfo to order, obferving, that the general defence of the conduct of Minifters did not bear upon the amendment then under confideration.

Lord Pelham claimed the indulgence of their Lordships whilft he proceeded to justify the meafure now propofed. He perfectly agreed with thofe noble Lords who ftated, that the beft mode in which we could carry on the war, was by a direct attack upon the enemy, but he thought the country ought to be affured of its own fecurity, before fuch a proceeding thould be reforted to. Let the people feel themselves fafe, and let them then annoy the enemy, and attack him in those quarters where he was molt vulnerable. This coun

try,

try, he was convinced, could not long want the means of hoftile operations against France by a foreign force, which would be, and heretofore was always proved to be, the foundest policy of the united kingdom. His Lordship then proceeded to explain the advantages of this plan in the prefent inftance; but scarcely added any thing to what had been repeatedly urged before, in the House of Commons, when the bill was there under difcuffion.

Earl Spencer was decidedly for dispatch in this new levy. An additional land army of 40,000 men for England and 10,000 for Ireland must have a real effect, in whatever manner it might be difpofed of. He acknowledged that he should have been much better pleafed with fuch an addition to the troops of the line, and the more fo, as he thought this balloting muft interfere with, and in a great measure fufpend, the recruiting for the regulars; but at all events no time fhould be loft, and he should fupport the meafure as being the commencement of a more enlarged military system.

After a good deal of converfation, the amendment of the Duke of Cumberland was, with the confent of the Houfe, withdrawn.

The different claufes of the bill were then agreed to with fome trifling amendments, and Lord Walfingham (the chairman of the Committee) obtained leave to make the report.

Lord Suffolk faid, that though he might not be perfectly regular in then speaking of the merits of the bill before them in the present ftage, yet as it regarded the defence of the country, he must confider himself to be perfectly in order but his Lordship being here interrupted by a cry of order! he faid he should referve himfelf for a future opportunity.

Lord Rawdon (Earl of Moira) called upon the noble Secretary for an explanation of the meaning of the clause, which according to his conftruction of it, appeared to give moft unneceffarily a gratuitous exclufion to the fubftitutes, who had voluntarily entered into regiments of the line, from going abroad, even if they expreffed their defire fo to do. His Lordship faid, in the courfe of the war, it might be thought expedient to attack a fort or military pofition on the enemy's coaft, or to fend a regiment or two out to defeat an armament on the fea, and he faw no reason why Ministers fhould deprive themfelves of the fervice of the fubftitutes admitted into regiments of the line, if they volunteered their fervices, in the cafe of their regiments being fent on general fervice abroad.