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of military habits would not object to unlimited service, when the occasion required it; for very soon after the passing of the bill for empowering militiamen to enter into regulars, notwithstanding the reluctance of the officers to part with those men whom they were at the trouble of training, we had an accellion of 40,000 additional men, which enabled our armies to perform exploits which equalled the proudest times of the prowess of the nation. It would not, he believed, be deemed orderly in him, to refer to discussions in another place; but he was free to confess he never heard nor read of a better system both of offence and defence, than was displayed on the occasion he alluded to; and he made no doubt but the enemy would find, on making the experiment, that there was much more military skill and science in this country, than they might have been led to imagine.

His Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland explainedthat conceiving a powerful attack upon the enemy at home, to be best suited to the dignity, and conlistent with the anrient renown of this country; but that he never meant that compulsory, unlimited service, should be extended to men drawn by ballot. What he submitted was, that persons entering as substitutes, and receiving money for doing so, should be on the same fuoring as the recruits for the line, who also received a bounty. However, as this proposal did not seem to accord with the general feelings of «he House, he should not perfift in his amendment, if their Lordthips would allow him to withdraw it.

Earl Grosvenor was entering into an elaborate ju'tification of the measures proposed by his Majesty's Ministers, when he was called to order by

Lord Mulgrave-- who said, that the discussion which the noble Lord seemed disposed to engage in, was not ftri&tly applicable to the question before the House.

Earl Grovesnor then put in his claim to take another opportunity of going more at large into the subject.

A long and very de sultory conversation then ensaed, in which Lords Mulgrave, Darnley, Westmoreland, Moira, Hobart, Camden, and several others took a part, but which urned principally on points of explanation.

Lord Mulgrave thought the defence of the country was the principal object to be consulted at present. As to filling up ihe old regimen's, that may be made the subject of confideration to those within whose department it more immediately rested: he had the highest respect for the opinions delivered Vol. IV. 1802-3.


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in the House by high military characters; but however he might with for a large disposable force, he conceived that it would be time enough to employ it when the country was out of danger.

Lord Carlife thought the measure rather inadequate to the objects proposed, but would not object to the bill, because he thought no time should be lost in proceeding upon this preliminary measure.

His Lordship was then proceeding to arraign the Ministers for their tardiness and want of an early display of spirit, when he was also called to order.

Lord Dar nley defended the train of arguments which the noble Lord was embracing, and was pursuing a fimilar course, when he was called to order by

The Lord Chancellor, who said, that his observations had no immediate reference to the question before the House.

Lord Darnley Caid, he did not think himself by any means deviating from the question, and again renewed the same line of observation.

The Lord Chancellor again interrupted him, and complained that the frict orders of the House were very seldom complied with. On many occasions, when he attempted to enforce them, he was forry to find that he was not fufficiently supported; and if noble Lords continued to go on in the same way, it would be neceffary to determine, before the end of the present session, whether the House should abide by its orders or neglect them.

Lord Darnley then said, that he should take occasion, in another stage, to deliver his sentiments more at large upon The subject.

Lord Hobart conceived, that the situation in which he stood, ensitled him to particular attention, while he attempted to explain the general merits of the question.

The Lord Chancellor called him also to order, observing, that the general defence of the conduct of Ministers did not bear upon the amendment then under consideration.

Lord Pelham claimed the indulgence of their Lordships whilft he proceeded 10 justify the measure now proposed. He perfectly agreed with those noble Lords who stated, ihat the beit mode in which we could carry on the war, was by a direct aack upon the enemy, but he thought the country ought to be affured of its own fecurity, before such a proceeding should be resorted to. Let the people feel themselves safe, and let them then annoy the enemy, and attack him in Those quarters where he was most vulnerable. This coun


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try, he was convinced, could not long want the means of hostile operations against France by a foreign force, which would be, and heretofore was always proved to be, the foundest policy of the united kingdom. His Lord thip then proceeded to explain the advantages of this plan in the present instance ; but scarcely added any thing to what had been sepeatedly urged before, in the House of Commons, when the bill was there under discussion.

Earl Spencer was decidedly for dispatch in this new levy. An additional land army of 40,000 men for England and 10,000 for Ireland must have a real effect, in whatever man. ner it might be disposed of. He acknowledged that he should have been much better pleased with such an addition to the troops of the line, and the more so, as he thought this balloting must interfere with, and in a great measure suspend, the recruiting for the regulars; but at all events no time should be loft, and he should support the measure as being the commencement of a more enlarged military system.

After a good deal of conversation, the amendment of the Duke of Cumberland was, with the consent of the House, withdrawn.

The different clauses of the bill were then agreed to with some trifling amendments, and Lord Walsingham (the chairman of the Committee) obtained leave to make the report.

Lord Suffolk faid, that though he might not be perfe&tly regular in then speaking of the merits of the bill before them in the present stage, yet as it regarded the defence of the country, he must consider himself to be perfectly in order but his Lordship being here interrupted by a cry of order! he said he thould reserve himself for a future opportunity.

Lord Rawdor (Earl of Nioira) called upon the noble Secretary for an explanation of the meaning of the clause, which according to his construction of it, appeared to give most unnecessarily a giatuitous exclufion to the substitutes, who had voluntarily entered into regiments of the line, from going abroad, even if they expressed their desire fo to do. His Lord hip faid, in the course of the war, it might be thought expedient to attack a fort or military position on the enemy's coaft, or to send a regin:ent or two out to defeat an armament on the sea, and he saw no reason why Ministers should deprive themselves of the service of the subftitutes admitted into regiments of the line, if they volunteered their services, in the case of their regiments being sent on general service abroad.


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Lord Hobart explained, that the clause meant to hold out to all who volunteered, or acted as substitute; for those bal. lotted for militia men, that no more should be exacted from them than was originally contracted for.

Lord Rawdon Earl of Moira) moved an amendment, which was negatived.

The Committee then went through the other clauses, and the bill was reported without amendments.

Lord Hobart moved two verbal aniendments on the report, which were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read à second time the next day.

Lord Mulgrave rose, he said, to move the suspension of two standing orders, agreeably to the notice he had given on Friday last ; but, as the present bill had been reported without amendments, it did not coníe within the purview of those orders. There were several other important bilis now pending, confessedly of a pressing and urgent nature, upon which he should move the suspenfion of those orders, which direct that no bill shall be passed two stages in one day. At a future opportunity, it was, his Lordship laid, his intention to call the attention of the House more particularly to the standing orders, and move to rescind them.

The Lord Chancellor made a few observations on the importance of the person who sat on the woolfack, not putting two questions in one day on one and the fame bill. ' But a motion to rescind the two orders was a very serious consideration. There were precedents of the House's liaving agreed to pass them over, of which instances they had repented them heartily in less than four and twenty hours. On the other hand, there might occur cases of such importance and emergency, as to justify to pass a bill through all its stages in one day; one had occurred recently, in which every noble Lord must have felt it to be his duty to accede to this line of conduct. All he meant to say was, that it ought to be a case of imperious necessity that could alone juftify the departure from the necessary caution, which ought to be preserved in respect to the violation of the standing orders of the House; and for his own part, he thought it the most prudent part to preserve the standing orders, as it always was, whenever deemed necessary, in the power of the House to suspend any standing order, pro hac vice, or for any given period.

Lord Mulgrave moved to suspend the standing orders in question, on the Scotch army of reserve, or additional militia hill. Ordered.


Lord Grosvenor then said, he should not be able to be present next day, and readily gave up the observations he had nieant to have offered, if he had not been called tu order in the Committee, and which, he had then said, he would make at another opportunity.



MONDAY, JULY 4. The Speaker, attended by several Members, proceeded to the House of Lords, where the royal afient, by commiffiun, was given to the exports and imports duties bill, the Highlands roads and bridges bill, the excise duty bill, the Irish fhip burning bill, and the bill for establithing a fund for the writers of the fignet.

FRIENDLY SOCIETIES, AND POOR. Mr. Rose brought in a bill for rectifying mistakes in the registry of the rules of friendly focieties. It was read a first time, and ordered :o be read a second time the next day.

Mr. Role then proceeded to make a motion, of which be bad given previous notice. The measure he bad in view comprehended three objects. ift, The comfort of the poor in old age; 2dly, employing them, especially youth, in useful industry; and, 3dly, the prevention of crimes. If the House Thould give him lcave to bring in the bill, for which he was about to move, it was his intention to suggest a much more simple measure than


that had hither. to been proposed for the amelioration of the poor laws. The measure he had in view, was nothing more than supplying materials for schools of industry, and fimulating the minds of the young tu sober industrious habits. Plans had been adopted in some diftri&s, which he knew, in confequence of which, the children of the poor not only maintained themselves, but affifted in the support of their

parents. In one district in Lincolnshire, where pains had been taken to create a spirit of industry among the poor, children at the age of 13 or 14, earned five and fix thillings a week; but in the same district, in the year 1777, out of 80,0001. of poor-rates, 50,0001. was applied to the support of the poor, and the remainder spent in journeys of the overseers and other parish officers. However wise it might be to get rid of the workhouse system, it was necessary before that was attempted, to fall on some means of employing the poor. He hoped the time would arrive when it would be found necessary to maintain none but children who had


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