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fore considered the proposition for railing two millions in Irela: d, now found io be impracticable, as only a disguise to keep so much of the general loan out of view, until the first part was disposed of. He thought, therefore, the more can did way would have been, in the firit inttance, to open the bidding for the whole loan in this country.

Mr. Corry assured the hon. Member it was really and fincerely the intention to have raised the loan in Ireland, had it turned out to be practicable upon terins at all adinissible; and he had purposely chosen torry Ireland first upon the principle so strongly urged last vear by a Gentleman not now in his place, and one of the representatives for that country (Ma Fuiter), who laid it down as an axiom, that the raising of loans in this country for the use of the Government in Trea land, was a ruinous practice for that country, as it would ef. feet a great drain of cath from Ireland animally to pay the interest to the holders of Irish stock in England. But, having tried the experiment without fuccefs, no charges would reit against him upon the ground that was so alleged to be im. politic. He was far, however, from thinking, notwithltando ing his ill success in the present instance, ihat the Irith mar kei should not be tried froin time to time in raising the loan for the year.

Mr. Alexander then brought up the report, which was agreed 10; and Mr. Corry moved an amendment agreeably to his proposition, which was adopted, and the bill ordered to be engrolled, and read the third time the next day.

WEST INDIA COLONIES. Mr. Barham said, ho held in his hand a petition, on the subject of which he was proceeding to expatiate ; when

The Chancellor of the Exchequer requested that he would poftpone doing so till some future day, as there was bufiners of very great importance already before the House, which it was extremely defisable to expedite as much as pollible.

Mr. Barham acceded to the request, and presenied the petition, which, on being read by the clerk, turned out to be on the part of the merchants, planters, and traders of the West India colonies, stating that they had been for inany years fuftaining great loss, (as they were obliged to send all their goods to this country exclusively, and were thereby deprived of the benefit of other markers) in consequence of the enormous duties laid upon lugars and other articles of their produce, without any regard 10 their staple produse ; or that Ven.IV. 1802.3.


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this, with other circumstances, did not allow them a profit by any means proportionate to the greatness and extent of their capitals; and praying for relief.

The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and Mr. Barhain gave notice, that he would make a motion on the fubject of it on Tuesday next.

Colonel Stanley moved the further confideration of the report of the cotton Committee.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer begged that this subject might be allowed to give way to the other important bufinets of the day. Besides, he said, the subject respecting cotton was of extreme importance, which he wished to consider of very minutely, which he could not find time to do heretofore, on account of the other more immediate subjects which pressed upon his a:tention.

Colonel Stanley consented, and the bill was poft poped.

The London quota bill was committed, and the report ordered for next day.

PROPERTY AND INCOME TAX. The House refolved into a Committee, to resume the confideration of the bill for împosing a duty on real and perfonal property.

When the clause which requires that the occupiers of land thall pay at the rate of 9d. in the pound on their rent was read,

Mr. Pilt observed, that the principle now admitted un all hands was, that every person should pay at the rate of is. out of every 20$. of his income. It appeared then, that when the bill proposed to take Od. per pound on the tenants, it was assumed that that would amount to the fame fum as one Thilling in the pound on his profits; or in other words, it was calculated that his annual profits were equal to 3-4ths of his rent. The bill, however, ought to declare the ground on which this estimation was taken, in order that the principle might be rendered manifest. The rent alone, however, could not shew the value of the tenant's profits; for of iwo farms producing the same average crop, one might pay a much higher rent to the landlord on account of its paying less or no tythes and poor rates. In such a case The estimation of the profits by the rent would be very unfair. The bill proposed, very juftly, that the tenant in Scotland should pay fixpence in the pound, because there being no poors rates or tythes in that country, the landlord receives a higher rent than in England. As it was presumed


by the bill that the English tenant's profits are equal to three.fourths of his rent, so it was supposed that the Scotch tenant's profits were equal to one-half of his rent. The principle of the estimation, however, ought to be declared, that it might not appear there was a boon given to Scotland where none was intended. A better criterion of the profits of the farmer ought also to be adopted, and he believed that would be found in the aggregate of the rent, tythes, and puur-rates

Colonel Il'ood thought there were considerable difficulties in the way of the last suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman. In his opinion, it would be better to adhiere altogether to the calculation on the rack rent, or to leave the malter to the discretion of the assessor.

Mr. Pitt confidered, that although an absolute equality might be impracticable, though a perfect fyftem could not be deemed attainable, that fill the House was not, on that account, to debar itself from approaching as nearly as it possibly could to such a perfection. He pointed out the in equalities in the operation of the act, as at present framed, in taking rent as the criterion of the income of a farmer. He instanced the case of two farms adjacent to each other, one of which might be extraparochiai and cythe-free, and the other liable to both outgoings, yet paying both the fame rent. Could it be said that in such a case the criterion of the present bill would be just and effectual for the purposes of a tax upon income? He then went through the observations of the Attorney General, on whose speech the right bop. Gentleman had paid very close attention to country affairs, as his excursions into the country had not perhaps, been so frequent as lie (Mr. Pitt) could have wished for the learned Gentleman's advantage, and probably he had chiefly drawn his arguments on the subject from the cases made out in bis briefs.

Mr. Sturt approved of the clause as it stood. Speaking of farmers in general, he observed, that in Suffex, where he bad the honour of residing a considerable part of the year, a farmer generally calculated on making four rents : one for his landlord, one for wear and tear, &c. one for the intereft or his capital, and one for his support. 1. )

Mr. Dine made fome humorous remarks on the Sussex farmers, and their proximity to the sea coaft; but was averse to the claufe. Mr. Windham considered, that it was the duty of the


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House, if perfect accuracy could not be attained, to approach as near to it as they possibly could.

Mr. Sargeani spuke at some length in support of the clause.

Mr. IV. Smith faid, the only question before the Conmittee was this: which is the best criterion for ascertaining the farmer's income! In fyme places poor rates differed exceedingly, and therefore one criterion of the nature defcribed could not be a fair one for each place. He thought it no such difficult matter to estimate the income and out. goings of the farmer, more than the tradesman. In many Cafes indeed it would, upon experiment, be found to be inuch less so. There were many farmers, who kept their accounts as carefully and correctly as those in other buf. nelles. As to the ftatement respecting the Sussex farmers, he thought it rather went to thew the propriety of taxing them higher. It had been said great difficulty would alle from the taking tythes in different ways : fome, for inftance, were taken in kind. But in that case the amount taken is generally greater, and the rent paid generally less. Upon the whole, after a perspicuous view of the fubje&i, he supported the ideas of the right hon. Gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Pitt).

Mr. Hurst explained.

Mr. Sturges and Mr. Wilberforce spoke ; and the Attorney General explained at some length, and defended his former statements. He was always disposed to listen with peculiar attention and respect to whatever fell from such high authority as tliat of his right hon. Friend under the gallery behind him, but in this instance he must yet differ. Possibly bis own understanding might not be sufficiently enlightened to take so clear and proper a view of the subjeet as lois right hon. Friend; but whether he had a right or wrong view of it, his right hon. Friend had a great advantage over him in the manner of recommending his opinions to the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer felt no degree of furprise at an hon. Gentleman opposite to him (Mr. Wilberforce) objecting to the clause, as the other mode now recommended was, he recolle&ted, in the former income bill actually re: commended by that hon. Gentleman bimself. He was ready to maintain that the finances in many, nay, in most in, {tances did, under the last income tax, pay less to Government than under the operation of the augmentation of the assessed taxes. Adminiftration had not ventured upon the criterion pow.proposed without the most zealous endeavours to acquire the best knowledge on this subject, and frequent confultations with the best informed perions. As to the four rents mentioned, le remembered, that a lite great and highly dittinguished character, who turned his attension to clearly to every thing connecled with the best interests of the country, had given it as his opinion that a farmer ought to have fix or sever rents to enable him to acquire what is called a living profit: but he had never heard it ftated for many years, that less than four vears rents can be taken as a fair proportion for farming advantagcoully. Upon thele and a variety of other grounds touched on by the right lion. Gentleman,' he concluded by declaring bis firm belief that thisirs the faireit and heft criterion on the whole, fair a mea Line wirich never could be free from oljcations, and is fuch he was disposed and determined to give it his fupport.

Dr. Laurencc argued at fome length againit the clause, and explained the tentiments of Mr. Burke.

Mr. Pitt recapitulated many of his arguments, and observed, with respect to what liad been advanced as to the poor rates, as being of sufficient notoriety 10 constitute a ci. terion, that they were most accurately afccrtajnuble, and then the question would be, whether, having this addicional criterion in our power, we should proceed 10 Miake an ettimate without it. As to what the Chancellor of the Ixche. quer had advanced relative to tythes, it amounted only to this, that as perfection in that criterion could not be obtained, we were not to avail ourselves of it at allo though in noft cales of confiderable ule. This, to use an obvious parallet; was, 'as if in the construction of a time piece, we could not prevent the variation of the pendulum, we should use no pendulum at all; or, if because we could not prevent the variation of the needle, we should prevail on our mariners tu Jay it atide altogether. It was obvious, however, as to tubes, that the clergy must pay the tax in proportion to them; he therefore law no difficulty in ascertaining their amount with adequate certainty. So, with respect to the poor rates, nut. withftanding all that liad been laid as to the difficulty or af. certaining them, nothing could be more certain than that iliey must be known to the parochial officers by whom they were levied. The amended income too certainly produced Jefs under the amended criterion, but that was not owing to sov practical defect of the plan, but because the proportion of the rate was taken too low. This must have been lie case, or in the former mode they must have paid too much,


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