stand, with the allegiance they owe to their | about to make, have any reference to acsovereign, and with those Christian duties knowledged rights, I think the restoration which they profess to fulfil. This is not a of the church to the Roman Catholics mere assertion, my lords, I refer you to the might, on the same grounds, be defended; evidence laid before your committee. if any thing have been granted in the The Sub-letting Act was intended to spirit of conciliation, this would render remove some of the inconveniences attend- conciliation more complete; if any thing ing the holding of land, and it is to be have been extorted by apprehension of hoped that it was beneficial. I cannot danger or by threats, depend upon it that help regretting that the raising the quali-to this point the exertions of the Roman fication was not added to the measures for the improvement of Ireland, ostensibly affecting Protestants and Catholics, virtually it affected chiefly the latter, but it was intended as a measure of improvement, not of persecution, and, therefore, it was not necessary to couple it with a measure of concession. The Tithe Composition Act has, I believe, given great satisfaction, though I may be allowed to think that the principle is not the best which might have been adopted, and that, though of course very gradually, the example of Scotland might have been followed. Catholics will be steadily directed, while their means of aggression will be considerably improved. One of the Roman Catholic bishops has asserted that the Roman Catholic bishops have as much right to their Sees as you have to your Peerages. We know with what fondness the Irish cling to the recollection of their ancestors, of the property which they enjoyed, and which was forfeited on account of their religion, and though you have in evidence that that property is as readily purchased by Catholics as by Protestants, yet the hope of restitution is not extinguished, nor can the priests be supposed to discourage it, for you know from the same authority that the priests partake the feelings and the prejudices of the people, and, in favouring the opinion that the forfeited lands should be restored to the laity, they give a semblance of justice to their own claims on the revenues of the Protestant Church. And here I can not help making an observation on the College of Maynooth, for which establishment a noble marquis, once Lord-lieutenant of Ireland, took credit in a former debate. It has justified the opinion given by a venerable prelate, most dear to me, but now no more; when it was stated in his presence that in all proba→ bility men educated in Ireland would be more loyal and peaceable subjects than those who were educated abroad, he expressed his dissent saying, that he should say ex In that country it is well known to many of your lordships, a certain portion of the rent of lands once valued, forms the fund from which the parochial ministers are paid. These payments are in practice paid by the proprietor. The tenant, though he pay a greater rent, does not analyse or know the exact portion which is paid to the minister, who is therefore to him, except in his clerical character, quite indifferent. Tithes, my lords, although authorised by scripture, are never willingly paid, excepting by men of education and reflection, even where the payer is of the same religious persuasion as the minister; dissenters of course pay less readily, as they have to support their own minister, but how grievous must it be in Ireland where the payments are made to a church which is deemed heretical, and where it is believed that of right the tithes belong to the Roman Catholic clergy. Men of educa-actly the reverse, the bigotry of Ireland tion, my lords, with some exceptions, admit that there must be an established church, and make their payments as to any other institution; and in Scotland I may say that discontent is almost unknown. The gradual introduction of this system would have had great effect in appeasing animosities, but after the passing of this Bill it could afford no protection to the Pro-to be correct, and for my own part I cantestant establishment, for the Catholics must and will require possession of the church. If the concessions which you are now was greater than that of any other country, Spain herself not excepted; that men who were educated in France or other foreign countries would entertain less absurd notions of the Papal power, and be more inclined to obey a temporal sovereign. I think I can appeal to some of my Irish friends whether this opinion has not proved not but regret that a tax should have been levied on Protestants (a miserable boon, I have heard it called, considering the riches of the church of Ireland) for the While you strictly adhered to the principle of supremacy, objected to receive the Catholics who could only pay a divided allegiance, you could consistently oppose them, but as you now appear to renounce those opinions, the Catholics will more readily, than they have triumphed over your arguments, overcome your future opposition. dissemination of the religion which you have declared to be idolatrous; and, though the declaration be not repeated, the opinion of those who once made it must be the same, disseminated by priests who turn the talents which you have called into existence, or matured, against the country, which in its beneficent but imprudent liberality had provided for their education. I have said their means would be im- The question then will be-Will you proved. Much as some may in theory af-give up the establishment to the Roman fect to diminish the number of Roman Ca-Catholics as it is, or will you reduce it, tholics who will be admitted into the House appropriating the revenues to the payment of Commons, to this House, or to fill of- of the established church, of the Profices, it is impossible to deny that their testants of the church of England, and of influence would be greater than at pre- the Dissenters? will you, in establishing a sent; and not only I cannot conceive hierarchy of Roman Catholic bishops, give that every Irish or English Catholic would them a seat in this House to legislate on not wish for the re-establishment of the affairs relating to the Protestant Church, Catholic Church in Ireland, but the pas- or following precedent, vote that churchsing of this Bill would deprive the Pro- men can be but bad judges in such mattestants of many arguments against it. ters, and exclude them and the bishops of our Church from Parliament ? I incline to think that the immense pro In the debate on the Repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts (I believe in 1792) Mr. Fox argued thus-I presume the re-perty of the Church of Ireland would be porters, though they could not do justice to his eloquence did not pervert his meaning-"It would perhaps be said, that the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts, might enable the Dissenters to obtain a majority; this, he hardly thought probable; but the answer was short-if the majority of the people of England should ever be for the abolition of the Church of England then it ought to be abolished." divided. And would there be nothing in example? The Church of Scotland, as it was well observed, stands upon a rock-the rock of Poverty-but is that the case in England? is there not a large portion of the Dissenters hostile to our Church, but still more hostile to the establishment? are there not members of our own Church, who, affecting great zeal for her interests would exhaust her? assuring her, as the Grand Inquisitor did Don Carlos, that it Now, there was much truth in this was all for her good. Those who would maxim, and coming as it did from a great propose a reformation not to be accomStatesman, it is cherished by the Dissen- plished without invading the right of the ters; could it be rejected by the Catholics? Church to her property, by an interference I should say certainly not, if I may trust as violent as if they were to pass an Agramy own opinion, fortified as it was by the rian Law. Are there not others, not inexcellent observation used in a former considerable in numbers or in talent, who, debate on this question by the noble lord though disclaiming such intentions (which on the Woolsack, who told you they would one of them lately more candidly than disnever be satisfied unless they obtained the creetly disclosed) are determined on the ascendancy. spoliation of the Church. These different But why should not the Catholic_reli- persons uniting in one purpose, that of algion be established in Ireland as the Pres-teration, may entertain different opinions byterian religion is established in Scot-as to the system to be adopted: some preland? in one point of view, my lords, it ferring that of France, where the ministers has appeared to me to be a better arrange- of the established religion and of the Disment than many which have been pro-senters are paid by the state, the property posed, but the Catholic religion cannot be in alliance with a Protestant state; it may be established, but not in alliance with the state, not in subjection to the sovereign of these realms, who is in all matters ecclesiastical as well as civil supreme. of the Church having been previously seized; or that of America, where every sect pays its own minister. My lords, much of the zeal for the Church of Eng land is abated, this consists with my own observation; the discussions on the Test Act; the new principles you seem to have adopted, tend much to encourage the doctrine that all religions are indifferent, but that for political purposes one should be established; differing from a celebrated divine, I must believe, that if once you show that a religion is established for its usefulness and not for its truth, you divest it of that armour which should protect it against all attacks, it will be regarded as a civil establishment to be reduced from economical motives to the lowest state consistent with its utility. My lords, I am aware that the dangers which I have anticipated will appear to many even of those with whom I generally agree, visionary, and chimerical, they will perhaps be turned into ridicule by some who do not think them quite so visionary, by the majority they will at all events be considered as uncertain, and remote. I do not state them as imminent; I do not pretend to fix the time in which these events will occur; very probably I may not live to see them. If, my lords, we had merely a share, like life-annuitants, in the happiness and welfare of our country, we might confine our views to the circumstances and dangers of the moment; but, my lords, it is not in this House, where, of the assembled peers some have a seat won by the merits of their ancestors, and others have obtained that distinction by their own meritorious services, both equally transmissible to their descendants, that I can make an apology for extending my views to the future. The hereditary character of the House of Lords should be impressed on its legislative measures: it is expected that they should have the same provident and solicitous care for posterity, that each parent would have for his own offspring, and legislate with regard to their eventual interests. lords, I should not have offered myself to your lordships at this hour of the night, had I not felt deeply the importance of the question. I could have been content to have given a silent vote in support of the present measure, but, connected as I have recently been with Ireland, and having been a close observer, for ten months of the state and condition of that country, and having seen the various bearings of this question upon Irish society, I have come to the conclusion, that I ought to express to the House the opinions which I entertain on the subject, and the reasons why I entertain them. Anxious as I am that this bill should pass, still I cannot help remarking, that I have objections— and great objections, too-to several clauses of the bill which are considered as a necessary companion to it. I will not, however, enter into these objections at present, but will proceed to state the expectations of advantage which I look upon as the consequences of passing this great measure. We may consider this question, as it regards Ireland, in three distinct points of view. First, politically; next, religiously, and thereby I mean as it regards the ascendancy of the Protestant church; and lastly, in a military point of view. And first, as to the political view of it. I say, from the moment you pass this bill I shall consider the regeneration of Ireland complete. Ireland wants much, but what is it that it wants most? Repose. Ireland for several months has enjoyed that repose. Her gaols are empty; her police is idle; her military are unoccupied. It is my firm conviction, that this bill will secure the permanence of that tranquillity which is the source of all national happiness, and without which national prosperity can never be lasting. I do not apprehend any immediate dis- Tranquillity will produce this effect, and I turbance, if it could be proved to me that think immediately. It will secure an the rejection of this bill would lead to a ample flow of British capital into Ireland. civil war (which I believe to be absurd); It is a fact well worthy of your lordships' thinking as I do, that the Revolution (for I knowledge and attention-and I can can call it no less) which I have anticipa- vouch for the accuracy of it—that when, ted, would be accompanied by dissensions, in the year 1825, there was a mere exviolence, and probably a massacre of the pectation of emancipation being granted Protestants, I would much rather encounter by parliament, a single individual in Dubpresent dangers, which, if real, are not ir-lin received from England no less a sum remediable, than leave those remote but greater dangers, at once a monument of our own weakness, and a bitter legacy to our posterity. The Marquis of Anglesey said:-My than 1,300,000l. to be invested in Irish speculations. That sum, large as it was, had the bill then before parliament been carried, was to have been followed by a much larger sum; and I now take shame' K to myself that I was one of those who assisted at that time in throwing out that bill; for the consequence of it was, that much of that capital was withdrawn from Ireland, and all expectation of further capital flowing into it was, for the time, destroyed. And here I would ask your lordships to consider what would be the necessary consequence of an influx of capital into Ireland? First of all, it would increase the value of land. Next, it would diminish the rate of interest; and then it would open canals, drain bogs, reclaim lands, draw out all the resources of that fine and fertile country, establish manufactures, and cause all the population of Ireland to receive employment. Nothing is so fallacious as to suppose that the population of Ireland are dissolute and idle. Dissolute! You may ask for the returns of crime in England and in Ireland, and the contrast will show you which people is the most dissolute. Idle they are; but it is solely because they can get no employment. Give an Irish labourer sufficient employment, and pay him accordingly, and you will not have a better labourer on the face of the earth. But a more important consequence than all which I have yet described is, that when this measure shall have passed the wandering absentee will return. He will repair to the seat of his ancestors: he will find comfort where he left discontent; tranquillity where he left disaffection; and thus he will re-establish that greatest blessing to any country-the fair legitimate connexion between the landlord and his tenant. My lords, it is with diffidence and distrust that I say one word on the subject of religion before that right reverend bench, but I may be permitted to ask--is or is not the Protestant church of Ireland really in danger? If it be, then I say that the passing of this bill will do more to strengthen it in the minds of the people, and will better maintain its security, than all the penal enactments which the utmost ingenuity of legislation can devise. The church of England, my lords, wants no extraneous aid: it needs no support from the legislature. By its weight it is steadfast and immoveable, and if it chooses to enter the arena of theological discussion with its opponents, it is sure to come off victorious and triumphant. One word, my lords, as to the other point of view in which I proposed to con sider the question. I think there is no man acquainted with the state of Ireland who will not agree with me, when I state, that even in a time of profound peace, whilst under the system of exclusive laws, five-and-twenty thousand men is but a very scanty garrison for Ireland. In the event of war, or even of the rumour of war, that would indeed be well regarded as an improvident government which did not immediately add a force of fifteen thousand men to the previous military force. Forty thousand men, I should say, would be barely sufficient, under such circumstances. I say that there is a nucleus of mischief for the disaffected of that country in America. I say there is a focus of insurrection for it always existing in France. It cannot be questioned that both France and America wish to do us injury, and in case of any collision with either of those powers, the first object of both would be, to throw arms, to a great extent, into the hands of the discontented Irish. I am arguing, be it observed, upon the supposition, that the exclusive laws are in existence; for if they were not, the arms would not be received, or, if received, would be turned against the donors. I will suppose, however, that we are absolutely at war, and that there is a combination of the powers of Europe-no very unlikely contingency-against us. I then say, that it would be madness in any administration not to throw seventy thousand men immediately into Ireland. I should be sorry-with all the power of steam to convey troops from the continent, and all the advantages which modern science has recently introduced into the art of war-I should be sorry, I say, to see Ireland with so scanty a garrison in time of war, under the exclusive laws. Let us now, my lords, take another view of the subject. Suppose this bill to be passed into law by this day month: declare war if you like the next day; and I assert that you will have no difficulty within six weeks, to raise in that country fifty thousand able-bodied, and, what is better, willing-hearted men, who will traverse the continent, or find their way to any quarter of the globe, to which you may choose to direct their arms. I say, my lords, that the passing of this bill is worth to the British empire more, far more and I do not wish to exaggerate-than a hundred thousand bayonets. On these grounds, and on others which at this late hour of the night I abstain from stating, Lord Farnham said, there were so many noble lords anxious to deliver their opinions, and who could not refrain from delivering them if they did justice to their own characters, that he thought it would be more convenient to adjourn on the noble duke's motion, than to go on with the debate. [Cries of "adjourn!"] The Duke of Wellington said, that if noble lords persisted in calling for adjournment, the best thing would be to adjourn at once; for it was generally found that after an hour spent in debating the question of adjournment, noble lords were not very much inclined to listen to the speakers who addressed them on the original question. He would therefore consent to an adjournment; but he suggested to their lordships to make the adjournment as short as possible. He understood that adjourning to a Saturday was not unusual, and that there was a precedent for it in the year 1810. I am inclined to give my cordial support to this bill. [The noble marquis here sat down, but immediately rose again.] I beg pardon, but I ought to have adverted to an assertion which has fallen as I have been informed, from a right rev. prelate. I have been told that that right rev. prelate had stated, that the late chief governor of Ireland neglected the Protestant interest of that country, and cherished, supported, and protected by his authority, the Catholic Association and the Catholics. To the charge, in the sense in which it was meant by the right rev. prelate, I pleaded "not guilty;" and shall be ready at all times to defend my conduct. I endeavoured, as it was my duty to do, to hold the scales equal between the two parties into which Ireland is divided. I must beg leave to inform the right rev. prelate, that the late government of Ireland did not encourage the Association, nor did it discourage the best part of the Protestant population. But, if the right rev. prelate means, by discouraging the best part of the Protestants of Ireland, that the government did not support the schemes of the Brunswickers, then I plead guilty to the charge, and glory in my guilt. I encouraged neither the Catholic Assocition nor the Brunswick Associations; but I never could help making this distinction between them--that the one body was instituted for the relief of themselves from intolerable evils, whilst the other body had been formed to aggravate and perpetuate those evils. The Duke of Newcastle moved the adjournment of the debate till Monday. The Earl of Rosslyn objected to the motion, because he deemed it unnecessary and impolitic to let a single day pass without coming to a decision on this important question. On subjects of far less consequence their debates had often been prolonged to a later hour; but if the hour were still later than it was, and the disposition of the House still more strongly in favour of adjournment, he should urge their lordships to adjourn till to-morrow only. He should recommend their lordships, if they determined upon adjourning, to adjourn to a much earlier hour than that at which they usually commenced business. By that means, if they adjourned to eleven or twelve o'clock, and entered on the debate immediately, no time would be lost, and the country would the sooner be acquainted with their decision. After a short conversation, the House adjourned, at two o'clock in the morning of Saturday, till one o'clock in the after noon. HOUSE OF COMMONS. MINUTES.] Sir GEORGE MURRAY brought in a bill “to provide, for a limited time, for the government of his majesty's Settlements in Western Australia, on the western coast of New Holland," which was read a first time.—Mr. HUMR presented a petition from Mr. Francis Fortune, praying for the repeal of the act relating to the importation of Teas. ARRESTS ON MESNE PROCESS.] Mr. Hume presented a petition from persons in the Fourcourts' Marshalsea, Dublin, complaining of the law of arrests on mesne process for debts under 207., and of imprisonment for contempt. The hon. member said, he much desired that a further modification of the law of arrests should take place, but he could see no reason why those acts now in force in this country should not be extended to Ireland; and he mentioned, as an instance of the extraordinary oppression of the laws in Ireland, that a poor woman had been confined in the Four-courts for upwards of thirty years, for a debt of only 217. 13s. 8d. He also stated, that in the various prisons of Ireland there were more than one thousand six hundred persons in confinement for debts under 201.; which was a state of things which could not fail of producing misery to the unfortunate prisoner, with |