the French, Spanish, and Dutch navies, had sailed from their ports. LORD HAWKESBURY said, that the Committee would not expect him, he was sure, to enter into a discussion upon all the points of the Hon. Gentleman's speech, being perfectly ready, as he before stated, to enter into the fullest investigation of the conduct of Ministers when the proper season arrived. The Hon. Gentleman had thought proper, in the course of his speech, to make a personal allusion to him, with respect to his having signed the preliminaries of peace. Upon that subject he could state with the greatest sincerity, that, whatever the result of that event might be, he should never regret the share he had had in that transaction, which he should always contend was creditable to this country, and gave to Europe the only chance for A LONG CONTINUANCE OF PEACE!!!!! Gentlemen might talk of the bad consequences of a peace, but he begged they would also consider what might be the bad consequences of a war, and that, before they decided, they would balance the inconveniences of both together. The experiment of peace was, at least, as wise as the experiment, of continuing the war. of the specific object of that expedition. We had seen the Chief Consul of France go to Lyons, and, without any communication to any of the powers of Europe, declare that there was not one person in all the states which composed the Cisalpine republic, fit to be intrusted with the government of that country, and that, therefore, he would take it upon himself. He was, he confessed, seriously alarmed at this mode of reasoning which the Chief Consul had adopted; because, if we submitted to this encroachment, it was im: possible to say that he might not, at a future period, apply it to this country, and graciously condescend to take us under his protection. The Chief Consul then returned to Paris, after having made himself President of the Italian republic, annexed all that rich country to France, and converted it into cantonments for French troops. But this was not all; he had also acquired the whole of the island of Elba: that island was, by the treaty of Luneville, to be annexed to the Dutchy of Tuscany, and immediately after he stipulated for the possession of Porto Ferrajo. Another point to which he must call the attention of the House, was, that France had, by another treaty, acquired a very considerable territory on the banks of the Mississippi, and had acquired the means of supplying her West India islands independent of this country. He did not mean, now, to ask in what situation we stood with relation to the President of the Italian republic, whether it was a relation of peace or war; but he could not help entering his protest against that act of fraud, ambition, and insolence; for, upon this subject, he could use no other language. But he did hope the Noble Lord would explain to the Committee, and to the country, how it happened, that when we were discussing the preliminaries of peace, we thought we were giving Porto Ferrajo to Tuscany, when, in fact, we were giving it to France; and how it happened, that when we were giving back to France her West India possessions, we did not know that she had acquired possessions in that quarter, which would render her colonies much more advantageous to her. He did, however, believe that the Ministers were, at that time, themselves ignorant of these circumstances. If Mr. WINDHAM said, that the more we relied however, instead of treating with France in upon the spirit of the government we treated the name of her allies, we had treated with with, the more deplorable must be our condi those allies conjointly with her, it was impos- tion, if the fact was, that there was a detersible but we must have known the relation in mined spirit of hostility, and that the conwhich she stood to other countries. If Minis- tinued purpose and aim of that government ters had not taken the necessary means to in- was to destroy the greatness and prosperity of form themselves upon this subject, they were this country. There might be assurances of guilty of negligence; if they did ask the ques- friendship and peace; but let the conduct of tion, and got no satisfactory answer, they our adversary be examined, and it must be too were wrong in suffering the country to be evident to be disputed, that it was the settled treated with such indignity. He must now purpose of France to subvert the greatness of allude to another circumstance, which formed this country. When a preliminary treaty was a lamentable supplement to what he had al-made, it had always been the practice that ready stated, which was, that since the signing of the preliminaries, a very large portion of Mr. CORNWALLIS said, that with regard to the expedition, there were no reasons before the House to induce them to suppose that it had not a fair object, though perhaps it might not be proper for his Majesty's Ministers to state every thing within their knowledge upon the subject; but even supposing that the expedition had sailed with a hostile intention, which he really did not believe, still there was not the least ground for apprehension, because we had a force more than sufficient to resist any attack which they might be inclined to make, and our fleets would in that case be enabled to meet them in the open sea, instead of being employed for years in merely counting the French fleet in the harbour of Brest. If, therefore, he was a friend to the continuance of the war, which he really was not, the sailing of that fleet would be to him a matter rather of satisfaction than regret. hostilities should cease; that both parties should stand still, and that neither should do any thing to the injury of the other. In the case of a truce relative to besieged towns, a stop was put to the effusion of human blood, and the operations on each side were suspended: the besiegers were not allowed to make new works, nor the besieged to repair the old ones. The case was exactly similar with respect to a treaty between two countries. It was to be observed, however, that there were two orders of circumstances which affected treaties; the one, those events which happened subsequent to the conclusion of the treaty; the other, those which happened previous to that period, but which were not known till afterwards. These latter circumstances might not be known to either party; but if any circumstance, calculated to affect the articles of that treaty, was known to one party, and concealed at the time of making the treaty from the other, it was undoubtedly a fraud, and must set aside that treaty. The treaty might be affected in this way from the nature of the articles themselves: if any particular island or country was ceded, the article containing that cession was definite and certain; but there were other articles of a more indefinite nature. Thus, for instance, the article which guaranteed those territories and dominions which constituted the integrity of Portugal.--If itwas found that at the period of making the preliminary treaty, another treaty had been concluded which altered the integrity of Portugal that was meant to be guaranteed, and which treaty was not communicated to this country at the time of concluding the preliminary treaty, then surely the House must think, that a preliminary treaty, thus concluded, could not be acted upon with-rass the operations of his Majesty's Ministers, out dishonour. His Hon. Friend had done no more than his duty, in calling the attention of the House to the situation of the country: what had been done ought to be stated fairly; what was to be done, was another question: and whether it was proper or not to take any measure upon this subject, he was not disposed to say, but the House ought to have the whole situation of the country before it. Whether any step was to be taken, could not now be considered; but if the House would not consider the subject-if they would not decide Dr. LAURENCE said, that neither his Hon. upon those steps which ought to be taken-if they Friend nor himself objected to the delay in the would view the subject with an apathy which negotiation; he thought it a favourable symp seemed to him fatally to prevail-if they would tom on the part of his Majesty's Ministers, as co-operate with, and sanction measures without a it tended to prove that every thing was not requisite discussion-if they would go on with a abandoned, but that something yet remained kind of blindness which he could only compare to as a matter of discussion: so far he approved the judicial blindness mentioned in Holy Writ, of the delay, and wished it might be still then the existence of the country could only he esti- longer, as additional security to this country mated by months. Let them look at the state might result from it. The Noble Lord had of Europe-there were only two powers re- alluded to other treaties, but it should be remaining, Austria and Russia; all the rest were collected that this was wholly different from swallowed up by the power of France, and former treaties: in those, some basis avas estabe clearly saw that this country would only be blished as to the rights of other countries, as well left to be the last devoured. It was evidently as this; but in the present, no basis whatever the purpose of France to aim at universal em- was established; all former treaties avere passed pire-it was evidently their intention to de-by, and no foundation whatever was laid for the stroy the commerce of this country. He present. His Ion. Friend had therefore, with would not take up the time of the Committee further upon the subject now: circumstances were continually arising out of it to give occasion to new discussions, and he thought his Hon. Friend had very fairly brought the subject before the House. LORD CASTLEREAGH said, que avere avell acquainted with the operation of an European force in St. Domingo, and must be aware that 30,000 men, which was the extent of the force sent out by France, was not disproportionate to the object that was to be attained, if that force was to be met by an hostile opposition; and even if it was not, still, when the extent of St. Domingo was considered, and the number of garrisons which would be required, the force which was sent out was not of disproportionate magnitude. It appeared to him, that it could not have been the policy of this country to have objected to the sailing of the expedition from France. This must be apparent, if we looked to the state of the French colonies, as it must be equally the policy of this country as of France, that those colonies should be subjected to their former government. But it had been said, why suffer so many ships of the line to go out? if 30,000 men were necessary, these ships were not. This, if any event did take place, as had been predicted by some Gentle-, men, would be undoubtedly for the advantage of this country, as it would be then easily found at a distance from its own ports. He did not see that the occasion called for the dis cussion of those abstract questions which had been raised, and which might tend to embar and to commit the House with respect to the definitive treaty. He also thought that a delin cacy ought to be observed in commenting upon those treaties which affected other powers. It was not proper that observations should go abroad upon such treaties, until the decision of those states was known, upon the subject in which their own security and safety might be involved, and how far they considered themselves to be affected by those treaties. a proper degree of jealousy, called the atten- | proceed too cautiously in so important a negotion of the House to this subject, when those tiation, and they ought to give that informasupplies were brought forward which were in- tion to Parliament which would enable that terwoven with it, and which it was impossible | House to form a deliberate judgment of what to vote as a matter of course. The Noble ought to be done to ensure the welfare of the Lord (Hawkesbury) had said, he should be country. They ought to request the advice of ready to give every requisite explanation at the that deliberative body to whom were intrusted proper time; there was no doubt of that, as the interests of the nation, and who must deat that time the Noble Lord must be ready.cide eventually how far the termination of this The Noble Lord (Castlereagh) had drawn a negotiation was calculated to promote those consolation from the French expedition to the interests. If, however, his Majesty's MiniWest Indies, which his mind could not ac-sters would not bring the subject before that. knowledge; he could not see that any security House for its mature deliberation, he thought was to be derived to us from any effect that that even a longer delay ought to be allowed could arise from the operations of that force. them for the deliberate discussion of so imThe Noble Lord had observed, however, that portant a subject. in case of any event happening, their fleet would easily be found: if this was to be a con- The ATTORNEY GENERAL Said: "It seems Isolation, why was the French fleet blockaded in to me that the manner in which this debate Brest in the course of the war, instead of being has been conducted leads to no useful concluI suffered to sail? It was now found to be an sion; nor has it been held up by Gentlemen advantage that they should sail; but at the on the other side, to any sound parliamentary period alluded to, not even a small detach- purpose, as the Hon. Gentleman, and those :ment was suffered to sail from Brest harbour; who are with him, seem to think. They say, how much blame then was due to those Mi- that the Administration of this country have nisters who refused to permit any part of that detected fraud on the part of the persons with fleet to quit its port, when the sailing of the auhom they are negotiating, and that such conwhole must have been advantageous to this duct on the other side puts an end to the encountry? It seemed now, however, to be for-gagement on our part. That may be the sense gotten, that this fleet might do considerable mischief in the West Indies before we could operate against them; at any rate, the consolation was a very poor one, and not much deserving the attention of the House. He did not wish to go much at length into the discussion of the treaty by which Louisiana was ceded to France, only so far as it added to the power of that country: look at the colossus with one foot upon Amazonia and the other upon the Mississippi; look at it again, and see it ready to stretch out its hand to seize the West India islands. If they looked nearer home, the isle of Elba presented itself an instance of fraud on the part of France which ought to have set aside the treaty. Another instance was to be found in the circumstance of the Italian republic; this had hitherto been called the Cisalpine republic, which was in fact only another name for Cisalpine Gaul: but now that the First Consul of France was declared its President, it had assumed the name of the Italian republic, pointing, by its title, to the dominion of all Italy. With this republic it seemed to be a matter of uncertainty whether we were at peace or war: no stipulation had been made respecting it, nor was it included in the treaty, though one of the allies of France. This republic formed an instance of the never-ceasing ambition of France, a subject to which the attention of the Committee ought not to be called in vain. He trusted his Majesty's Ministers would exercise every care for the interests and honour of this country; the old system of Europe was broken to pieces, and new relations and new ties must be formed. They could not these Gentlemen entertain of the transactions of the negotiation between this country and France; but this I know, if it be, they have a manly duty to discharge. The Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, from the particular turn of his expression, has a manly duty to discharge, and that duty ought to find a manly spirit to perform it, by moving an address to his Majesty, to recall from Amiens the Minister who has so humiliated his country, as by this negotiation he thinks it has been humili ated. He ought to make some specific motion on the subject, that we may know what to do, instead of thus beating the air in vain. I think this mode of taking up this important subject, by piecemeal, very improper, and may be attended with serious inconveniences, and therefore deprecate this sort of proceeding. Why these irregular discontents in this House, these loud complaints, without propositions to remove them, these expectorations instead of clear expressions of discontent? Why not come forward in a manly manner to the House, and afford the House an opportunity of manifesting its patriotic feeling upon the subject, by rejecting the motion, as I apprehend it would, and setting the matter at rest? Indeed I do hope that this vicious practice of speaking upon a subject without intending to propose a practical conclusion, upon a subject so delicate as that of a pending negotiation, will be discontinued; it may increase to an enormous size of inconvenience by indulgence. I will not go over, at great length, the terms of various treaties between various nations: nor will I unfold every map, nor dust every docu ment published on state affairs for centuries, nor trouble the House with crude observations upon | them; I will be content with saying, the House has no reason to believe that Ministers will put up with any national indignity." HOUSE OF COMMONS*, MARCH 5TH, 1802. Dr. LAURENCE said, that it was a notorious fact, that the plan of the French government, when the war of arms was over, was to carry on a war of custom-house duties with us, and, if possible, to ruin our trade. This certainly called for the most serious attention of the Government of this country. This appeared by a pamphlet + published by a person of considerable consequence in the French government, for he was Under Secretary of State to Talleyrand. This book completely developed the plan of the French government to ruin our commerce. [Dr. Laurence then read a va riety of extracts from the pamphlet in support of his assertion.] The principles laid down in this book, were not the mere opinions of the moment, but such as France had uniformly acted upon; and as a proof of this, he refer red to the different treaties which France had made with other countries, in which this sys. tem had been invariably adhered to. All these circumstances ought to make us extremely watchful over our commercial interests. He therefore hoped that some plan of commercial intercourse between this country and France would be established before the definitive treaty was signed, because he was sure that after the treaty awe should not succeed in establishing one. If that object was secured before the definitive treaty was signed, the conspiracy which had been formed against our commerce would be unavailing; if it was not, the most serious consequences might be apprehended. HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 12TH, 1802. nister retired to a corner of the room, and The quarter where indemnity could be propery pressing this subject, took notice of the vague obtained, in Holland. His Lordship, after EARL CARLISLE rose to call the attention of the House to a matter in which the national honour, as well as our essential interests, are manner in which the definitive treaty wa seriously involved, by the duplicity practised drawn up, and particularly the omission of on the part of France, in signing the treaty of peace at Amiens. The 18th article of that confirming ancient treaties. This omissio treaty states, that the House of Orange, hav- gave to France and Holland great advantages. which passed unnoticed, as they did not ap ing sustained some losses of private property pear on the face of the definitive treaty. A in the late republic of the United Provinces, the advantages which this country had obtar. now the Batavian republic, in consequence of ed after a spirited stuggle in 1787, by the cor the change in its constitution, a suitable com-vention then concluded by a Noble Lord op pensation shall be made for the said losses. This treaty was signed on the 27th ult. and this country thought, no doubt, she was obtaining something for a family to which we are bound by various ties. But two hours before the siguing took place, the Dutch mi The debate was on the American Treaty Bill. + Hauterive's "Etat de la France." posite to him (Auckland); all these adva * See Register, vol. i. p. 361. HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 3D, 1802. Dutch and French papers as officially published | a day, and that he should wish not to be an by the Government). From these we learn, early day, to discuss the whole matter. He that the Prince of Orange not only is excluded did not wish to enter on a debate on Monday, from any indemnity in Holland, where his pro- | but he meant it as a motion, merely to explain` perty rests, but that the custom of compelling the grounds on which the House should fix the Dutch to do homage to our flag at sea, an some future day for the discussion. The queshonour to maintain which our ancestors bled, tion was then put and carried. is given up. The privileges obtained in 1787, of trading to the Spice Islands, and other privileges highly advantageous to our commerce in the East Indies, are relinquished by the nonrenewal of former treaties. This was the most alarming deficiency of the definitive treaty. Mr. WINDHAM rose, and spoke nearly as All the commercial regulations, to establish follows:-" I do not rise to solicit the House which this country had so often struggled, to come now to any final decision upon the and under which our commerce had so greatly merits of the definitive treaty of peace which flourished, ceased to exist, the grounds of new has been laid on the table, but simply to move disputes were left, the seeds of future wars a day for taking it into consideration. As one were laid, particularly with regard to our in- of the persons who have the misfortune to diftercourse with the Dutch in the East Indies. fer from his Majesty's Ministers, I do not conIndeed, most of the treaties which had nou-ceive there can be any objection to this prorished our commerce were destroyed by the present peace; the Methuen treaty, which contributed so greatly to our prosperity, no longer existed; our right to cut logwood was lost, and various other privileges equally important. posal. His Majesty's Ministers think that no discussion is necessary upon the definitive treaty, the preliminaries having met with the approbation of the House, and consequently they have declined to introduce any motion respecting it. Whether this be an invariable custom, or one that would be more honoured LORD PELHAM did not feel that Ministers in the breach than the observance,' I shall were bound to make any reply, as the Noble not stay to inquire. If there be precedents Earl had made no motion, and only commu- that do not render any such proceeding necesRicated what he deemed important informa- sary, they must be founded upon the presumption, with the view, he supposed, of directing tion, that, by its approbation of the preliminary the attention of the House to the consider-treaty, the House has sanctioned the definitive. ation of certain subjects previous to the discus-Now I think it is quite the contrary in the sion on the definitive treaty. The Noble Earl's object was therefore answered, as the House and his Majesty's Ministers had heard him, and Lord Pelham saw nothing that required a reply from Ministers at this time. HOUSE OF COMMONS, APRIL 29TH, 1802. LORD HAWKESBURY brought up a copy of the definitive treaty of peace, ratified between his Majesty and the French republic, his Catholic Majesty, and the Batavian republic, and moved, "That these papers be laid upon the "table," Mr. WINDHAM said, that the Noble Lord had anticipated part of what he was going to say upon this subject; and he understood the course stated, and the grounds for it, to be such as mentioned by the Noble Lord; but he must observe, however, the Noble Lord had not said any thing which changed his mind as to the course he should pursue, but which happened to accord with the ideas of the Noble Lord, as he had expressed himself to-night. He should like to have an early day to mention this matter again; he should propose Monday next, not for the purpose of discuss ing the subject, but for the House then to fix VOL. II. present case. I think that the question is completely open, and that there may be perfectly good grounds for giving a different judgment upon the definitive treaty from that which the preliminaries have received. At the same time, however, that Ministers have declared that they see no necessity for farther discussion, they have also expressed a wish, that, if any such be to take place, it may be a full, complete, and not a partial discussion. If by this they mean that the subject should be taken up upon all its grounds, with all the circumstances of the early disclosure on their part, of all the necessary papers and information, and with a full view of the subject in all its points, bearings, and relations, in that wish I heartily concur. If, on the contrary, by deprecating a partial discussion, it be meant that the whole discussion should take place on the same day; if it be meant to crowd all the points of this comprehensive business into a single sitting, and without full information to assist the judgment in its inquiry into the merits of each, I cannot agree; because it cannot be done with justice to a question of so great magnitude. In the circumstances under which I now present myself, I am, mutatis mutandis, like a counsel in an opening speech, in which I am to touch on a variety of papers and matters, the complete knowledge of which can only be disclosed in the proofs produced in the pro3 B |