thing, however, could be a greater misunder- definitive treaty than they had stood in the standing. Never could any man possibly be less preliminaries. As to what the Noble Lord the advocate for France than he was; and if the had said of the breach of the public faith to cause were never pleaded but by him, it would the Queen of Portugal, he did not think that be very feebly urged indeed. His opinion upon charge at all imputable to this country: as far as the effect of the omissions with respect to the it was in the power of his Majesty's Ministers, navigation of the eastern seas, remained unal- they had stipulated for the integrity of her tered. In the treaty of 1783 it was stipulated Most Faithful Majesty's territories and pos that we should continue quietly to exercise sessions as they were previous to the comour rights in that respect; and these were held mencement of the war; and as to the excepof such high importance, that the treaty of tion relative to the limits of the French posses1787 was negotiated principally with the view sions in South America, that article was stipu of ascertaining these claims, and to avert a lated between Portugal and the French by a war, which was just about to be entered into, separate treaty, over which Great Britain had in consequence of the unfounded pretensions no control, not being a contracting party; of France in that respect. He thought that a but Ministers had obtained an explicit definidistinct explanation should take place even tion of those limits, which were determined now with France upon this point, which may by the fall of the river Arawari into the ocean be effected in the course of five days, and be- below the North Cape near the Isle Neuve, fore the cession of the Cape, Malta, &c. was and the Island of Penitence. With regard to carried into effect. He then touched upon the the House of Orange, most undoubtedly it had recent acquisitions made by France on the con- | been stated, when the preliminaries were untinent of North America, and adverted to the der consideration, that there were hopes of unfavourable and general effects they might obtaining for the Prince of Orange such a have upon the interests of this country in that compensation as would be entirely satisfactory quarter, particularly with respect to our West to that unfortunate and illustrious personage; India commerce in periods of war. From this but though they had not been able to succeed topic he passed to the acquisitions of territory in that, they had prevailed so far as to induce made by France on the continent of Europe, the French to make a public acknowledgment and the serious consequences with which these that the House of Orange had suffered losses in were fraught; and, drawing to a conclusion, what was now termed the Batavian republic, he recalled to the recollection of the House and to declare that an adequate compensation some of the leading passages of the last speech should be procured to the Prince for his losses. In of the illustrious King William, which ought, respect to the Cape, which was another point he said, ever to be impressed on their Lord- to which the Noble Lord had called the atten ships' minds, respecting the aggrandizement |tion of the House, they had procured a full of France at that period, in consequence of a explanation of the stipulation respecting it, Prince of the House of Bourbon being placed which was to be found in the definitive treaty. on the throne of Spain, by which the French His Lordship spoke to what Lord Grenville King would become master of the whole Spa- | had said of what he had termed a new public nish monarchy; in consequence of which, this law of Europe, which he had decared would country could never experience the blessings be the law of the King of France; and said that of real peace, but must continue to be exposed such was the inevitable result of a peace, where to all the expenses and inconveniencies of war. a renewal of ancient treaties could not be attainThis reasoning, his Lordship contended, ap-ed. He denied that the construction put upon the plied most emphatically to the state of the two countries at the present period; and, after further expatiating upon these general points, and the vital importance of the subject in question, in the discussion of which, not only the dearest interests of the nation, but the character of the House was involved, his Lordship concluded by moving, "That this House "do, on Friday se'nnight, take into consider-been more desirable than the present arrange❝ation the definitive treaty of peace."

LORD PELHAM said, he could not pretend to follow the Noble Lord through the extended range of observations that he had made, but there were certain leading points to which he would give some answer. The Noble Lord had stated several important topics as veriations in the definitive treaty from the preliminary treaty but he could not admit that they were variations; and where they differed at all, it was in being more fully explained in the

condition relative to the Russian prisoners was the true construction; he could not, he said, admit that this country was to be at the expense of furnishing and clothing them. With regard to the island of Malta, it had been hoped that the Emperor of Russia would have accepted of being the guarantee of the island's independence, which he owned would have

ment respecting the island; but if they could rely on the good faith of France, the danger the Noble Lord apprehended was not likely to arise. His Lordship said, having thus imperfectly answered the principal facts spoken to by the Noble Lord, he would detain the House no longer; but conclude with moving the amendment, of leaving out the words "Friday se'nnight,” and inserting "Wednesday the 12th instant."

LORD THURLOW rose, not, he said, to go into the subject of the definitive treaty, but t●

signed and executed at Amiens, communicated procured for the Prince of Orange and his adto his Majesty's Ministers, be laid on the table of that House.

LORD PELHAM rose to reply, and after a few introductory remarks, assured the Noble Earl that to present any such address as was moved could answer no purpose whatever, as no such communication as that referred to had ever been made to his Majesty's Ministers, nor as he apprized from any authority that such a convention had been entered into.

The EARL of CARLISLE expressed his surprise at the Noble Lord's reply, because, though he could not have procured a copy of the convention in question, yet surely the Noble Lord, as Secretary of State, could have ordered the proper person at Paris to have demanded a copy of it, and to have transmitted it to his Majesty's Ministers. His Lordship took notice of the singular expression made use of by the Noble Secretary of State, in the course of the preceding evening's debate, viz. that he owned he had been disappointed, in respect to procuring a better security for a full and adequate compensation to the Prince of Orange and his adherents, for their respective losses. Surely the Noble Lord, from the official authority he was clothed with, might have directed the Noble Negotiator on the part of Great Britain, to have insisted on a fuller and more explicit and satisfactory article than the 18th article that now stood in the definitive treaty; for he was persuaded that the Noble Marquis, if he had been aware that such a convention would have been entered into, as that immediately afterwards executed between Holland and France, would not have suffered the honour of the British character to have been stained, by a desertion of the interests of the Prince of Orange and his adherents, in direct violation of the good faith of this country, and its indispensable duty.

herents.

The LORD CHANCELLOR Contended strenuously that the pledged faith of nations was an ample security for the stipulation to procure a full compensation for the losses suffered by the House of Orange.

LORD AUCKLAND, in a speech of some length, acknowledged his regret that a more satisfactory article had not been obtained as a security for the compensation to be made to the Prince of Orange, than the 18th article of the definitive treaty; he disliked both the substance and the expression of that article; he wished to have seen the means of making the compensation, the amount of it, the fund from which it was to be taken, described explicitly in an article upon the subject. But he was aware that great allowance was to be made to a negotiator, and to whom great indulgence was to be shewn, because he knew from his own experience in diplomacy how much negotiators were obliged to concede in order to obtain a favourite object. He spoke highly of the claims of the Prince of Orange on this country, from what fell within his own knowledge during the four years he had spent in Holland as a Minister for this country, just previous to his leaving which the French army were within seven miles of the Hague. Dissatisfied, however, as he was with the definitive treaty, he derived some consolation from the Noble Marquis's declaration, that he had no doubt but that the 18th article would be solemnly fulfilled by the contracting parties.

The MARQUIS CORNWALLIS explained that he had said, if the faith of nations, publicly and solemnly pledged, was to be relied on.

LORD CARLISLE having charged Ministers with something like swindling, in having dis posed of the territories of the Prince of Orange, The MARQUIS CORNWALLIS immediately delivered by him into our hands in trust to rose to defend his own conduct, and said, he hold for him,-LORD HOBART denied that the could not conceive that there was any ground to Dutch colonies, which we had obtained, had suspect that the 18th article of the definitive been delivered into our hands by the Prince of treaty would not be solemnly fulfilled. Neither Orange, or by his means; he had himself, his could he conceive that a separate agreement, Lordship said, been the person to receive the entered into by two of the contracting parties answer sent by the governors of the Dutch to the definitive treaty by themselves, as it colonies to the letters they had received in the qwere in their closet, without the concurrence or Prince's name, and the answers to all those consent of the other contracting parties, could letters uniformly stated, that the governors possibly be liable to be considered as affecting the could give no reply to the orders of the Prince due execution of a treaty, for which the good of Orange, dated from Hampton Court. Lord faith of all the four contracting parties was Hobart mentioned the governors of Berbice, pledged. With regard to his having deserted, Demerary, Essequibo, and Ceylon, as having or suffered the interests of the Prince of given these answers, and contended that we Orange and his adherents to be deserted, he obtained those colonies by force of arms.disdained the imputation; he had deserted no LORD GRENVILLE contended that one of those interests that this country was bound in honour islands was put into our hands through the to maintain, and he had not the smallest doubt means and influence of the Prince of Orange, that a full and ample compensation would be-LORD HOLLAND said, he agreed in part

with what the Noble Lords below him (Lords
Grenville, Spencer, and Carlisle) had stated,
but he disagreed with them materially in some
points. He did not so much quarrel with
the 18th article in the treaty, nor think
the terming of the Prince of Orange a branch
of the House of Nassau, was worth fighting
for. He did not believe France would at any
time have allowed the Stadtholder (who was
the servant, and not the sovereign, of the Dutch
republic) the title of the Prince of Orange.
A conversation arose about the article of the
projet of 1797, concerning the claim to hold
the Cape, Ceylon, and Cochin, in our hands,
by the treaty then negotiating.-The LORD
CHANCELLOR had, in some former speech, in-
sinuated, that he believed the Ministers of that
day would have consented to recede from a
part of that claim.-LORD GRENVILLE denied
this, and said he had the authority of the late
Chancellor of the Exchequer, the late Secretary
at War, and he had no doubt but he should
have the testimony of two Noble Friends of
them present, that it never was meant to re-
cede in the smallest degree from the whole of
that claim.-EARL SPENCER, and the EARL
of ROSSLYN, both rose and vouched for the
truth of this declaration by the Noble Lord.

account of its fertility, not on account of its po pulation, not on account of its trade, though all these were considerable, but because it was the only security for the valuable but vulnerable possession of Brazil. This was forcibly illus trated by the treaty of Utrecht concluded in 1713, which was guaranteed by Great Britain. By the articles of this treaty, France was expressly prohibited from crossing the river St. Vin cent, or trading to the mouth of the Amazons. In the preliminaries it was declared that the dominions of her Most Faithful Majesty should be preserved entire. But on the 29th of September, two days before the signature of the preliminaries, a treaty had been concluded between Portugal and France, by which the former power was obliged to cede an immense tract of country in America. When the Noble Lord was questioned upon this point, he was evidently much embarrassed and perplexed. At last an explanation was given; from which it appeared, that by entire was meant the dominions of which Portugal had not been despoiled. This statement of the Noble Lord, however, was questioned in the French councils, and no satisfactory information could be obtained. The treaty of Badajos might be adhered to, but the object of France was as completely gained as if her original pretensions had been admitted. She had secured to herself HOUSE OF COMMONS, MAY 5TH, 1802. the navigation of the Arawari. From a Dutch Mr. ELIOT rose to move for certain papers map that he had, one or two copies of which connected with the definitive treaty. He said, only were in England (the rest, from their unhe had no doubt the motions he had to pro- common accuracy, having been bought up by pose would meet with the unanimous assent of the Dutch government), it appeared that the the House. After the candid avowal of the only entrance into this river was between the Noble Lord, and the declaration of the Right two islands Nuova and Penitenza. France Hon. Gentleman, he was convinced that Mi-thus controlled the commerce of Brazil, and nisters would be eager to furnish the House with all the information necessary to a full and fair discussion of the merits of the definitive treaty. The first paper for which he should move was, the treaty of Badajos. There were two treaties concluded at Badajos, one between Portugal and France, which never was ratified, and another between Portugal and Spain, which was ratified, and which was the document he alluded to. By that the important town of Olivenza was ceded to Spain, and the integrity of Portugal was most materially violated. This paper was alluded to in the seventh article of the definitive treaty; therefore no objection could possibly be made to producing it. His second motion should be for copies of any convention or armistices concluded between Portugal and Spain during the year 1801, and communicated to the British Government. It was to be feared that these contained many commercial stipulations highly detrimental to this country; and one of them was the basis of the treaty by which a great part of Portuguese America was ceded. The Hon. Gentleman now entered into a consideration of the fatal effects of this cession. He said this district had always been reckoned of the utmost importance by Portugal, not on

the whole wealth of South America lay at her mercy. What means she might use to extend her usurpations he would not pretend to foretell, or whether she might not halt for a while to consolidate what she had already usurped. But, after what had taken place in Italy, not a doubt could be entertained that, sooner or later, France would seize on Brazil and Peru. The words of the definitive treaty inflicted upon this country a needless indignity. It asserted the integrity of Portugal, and gua ranteed its dismemberment. We held out our protection only to display our weakness. He should thirdly move for the copies of any treaties entered into between Spain and France during the late negotiations for peace. Our new ally dealt in masked conventions, and, after several mock treaties, one made its appearance, by which the whole of Louisiana was ceded to France. She thus got possession of a large and fertile tract upon the river Mis sissippi, not more distant from Mexico than Northumberland from the metropolis of England. Much had been said of capital; here was a capital on which France would not fail to draw, and the world might long rue that such resources were in such hands. The French were now brought up to the very con

LORD HAWKESBURY said, that he did not know whether he could regularly reply at present to the Ilon. Gentleman's remarks. To the motion before the House, he had not the slightest objection; but he must say, that if the Hon. Gentleman was not disorderly, he had taken a most unusual mode of proceeding: he defied any one to point out an instance when, in the height of faction, an Opposition had ever adopted such a line of conduct. There had frequently been discussions concerning armaments and other acts of Government, and the constant practice had been to give notice of a motion for an inquiry, to mow for necessary papers, without entering into the main question; and when appointed, then at least to state the reasons why Ministers should not be censured or dismissed. Gentlemen, in making their preliminary motions now, took the widest range; and, from what occurred in another place, it appeared were inclined to speak to order, when an answer was attempt

fines of Canada, and might soon re-establish "ferred to in the 7th article of the definitive their empire in that country. But the United" treaty with France, Spain, and the Batavian States of America had most to fear. Kentucky" republic." and the western states had little connexion with the eastern; they were separated by immense forests, and peopled by different inhabitants, adventurers from every quarter. The only outlet to their trade was the Mississippi, and the American government had stipulated with Spain for the free navigation of that river. Now these states must be completely under the control of France. If France does not separate them from the rest, she will make America at all times dependant upon her, and will draw her into the confederacy against our naval greatness and the dignity of our flag; if indeed he could use the expression now that the dignity of our flag, which had once been reckoned our most valuable possession, had been disgraced and degraded. It might be said, that the spirit of Europe would rise to prevent these usurpations in America. Some people seemed to consider the spirit of Europe | as a kind of incantation. A foul and flagrant usurpation had lately taken place in the very heart of Europe, while Europe inertly looked on; yet the spirit of Europe was to protected to their laboured harangues. the independence of America. Gentlemen who held this language had profited little by Dr. LAURENCE affirmed, that such a speech ten years of woful experience. When France he had never heard in that House. He and had conquered the continent of Europe, could his Hon. Friends were denominated a faction, the continent of America be safe? The expe- and the most unworthy motives were imputed dition to Egypt was at first called visionary; to them. A custom had prevailed for some but if the principles of the present day had been years of commencing offensive war from the acted upon by Ministers then, France would Treasury Bench the moment that any measure now have been in quiet possession of that of Government was questioned. He was procountry, and perhaps other provinces of the ceeding to state the fatal effects of the non-reOttoman empire would have fallen a prey to newal of former treaties, when-The SPEAKER her rapacity. He maintained that the cession expressed a wish to know whether it was the of Louisiana had changed the whole com- pleasure of the House that the debate should plexion of the question. Had this fact been take this turn? He submitted to the House, known at the time when the preliminaries were whether, when a motion had been made and debated, he was well convinced the House acceded to, it was orderly for any Member to would have paused before assenting to them. enter on the whole subject over again?-Mr. He had great respect for Ministers as indivi- T. GRENVILLE professed to entertain the duals, and he would by no means say that highest respect for the authority of the Chair; they wished to impose upon the House. He but he begged the House to consider the situa believed that they were ignorant themselves; tion in which they stood. There were three but ignorance would not excuse them. Did motions before the House, and three questions they take the proper means to procure in- depending; these had been severally answered formation? Did they peremptorily put the from the other side of the House, and he could question? If France returned no answer, that hardly suppose it was the intention of the was the greatest indignity to the Government House to prevent a Member from observing on and to the country. If France returned a false the three.--The SHEAKER again interfered, by answer, it was a fraud; and in either case the observing, that the conversation was irregular, negotiations ought to have been broken off. as the motion immediately before the House At any rate, they were acquainted with the was assented to.-Mr. GREY said, it was quite fact before the signature of the definitive new to him to be told that the assent of any treaty; and before they proceeded farther, one member precluded all discussion, and was they were bound in honour to come again and to be considered so decisive that the motion ask for the opinion of the House. Mr. Eliot must be agreed to. If he was right in supconcluded by moving, "That an humble ad- posing such doctrine unfounded, the only "dress be presented to his Majesty, praying question was, whether the argument of his "that he would be graciously pleased to give Hon. and Learned Friend were relative or not? "directions for there being laid before the He conceived that on a motion for further in"House a copy of the treaty of Badajos, re-formation, he was competent to state the