1669] « sure, I would pawn the shirt off my back." Sir, that expression, with the weight and authority of such a name, conveys what I feel upon the present crisis." Mr. Fox-The Rt. Hon. Gent. describes me as having spoken of the power of France as not being formidable, and as having set it down for nothing. Now, I am in the recollection of every gent. in the House, whether I did not distinctly say, that I was as much impressed with its magnitude as any member in the House, or any man in the kingdom. I feel that power as deeply as any human being. I laid it specifically to the charge of the late ministers, that they had done more to aggrandise France, and to produce that power, than all the ministers that ever preceded them. I said that that enormous aggrandisement was a crime for which that Rt. Hon. Gent, and his associates were gravely responsible. Mr. WINDHAM." Sir, I spoke to the tenor of the hon. gent.'s speech.-I did not mean to fix upon any particular expression." cavalry, but still it is double what it was in the year 1784. As to the navy, in 1786 we had 115 vessels in commission; we have now 207. In 1792, the year preceding the war, we had 18,000 seamen; at present we have 46,000. So much for the reduction of our naval and military estab. It is with the utmost satisfaction, likewise, that I am able to convert into certainty what was stated I am the as conjecture respecting the increase of our commerce, manufactures, and revenue. more gratified in being able to do so, when I collect the gloomy presages on this subject which were held out by those who disapproved of the peace. In the year ending Oct. 1801, the exports of Brit. manufactures amounted to between 23 and 24 millions. In the year ending Oct. 1802, the exports amounted to no less than £27,500,000. During the last year also the amount of the reve nue has been unexampled. Many thought that I was too sanguine last year in taking the surplus of the Consolidated Fund at £4,500,000 for the current year, but for two quarters from the 5th The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER. Although April the amount of the surplus has already been they who thought with the hon. gent. that the upwards of 3 millions. The floating debt of every conclusion of peace was pregnant with the de- kind, which was estimated at upwards of 20 mil. struction to the country, may now agree with lions will, in Jan. next, amount to no more than him in the lamentable picture he has drawn of 14 millions. The principles on which ministers our situation and prospects, yet I cannot believe concluded peace were, that our single efforts could be of no avail to repair what was amiss in the that views so discouraging to all spirit of enterprize, so inconsistent with all public confidence state of the Continent, and that therefore our hoand private comfort, will meet with the approba-nour being saved, it was wise to spare our resources for occasions when, if peace could not be tion of impartial men in this House, or in the nation. I cannot believe that a comparison of the preserved with safety and with dignity, we might respective situation of G. Brit. and France, so full go to war with the co-operation of allies, or be of dismay to the inhabitants of this Empire, will enabled to assist and animate their returning be justified by the observations or by the feelings energies. When Austria retired from the contest of the country. The R. H. Gent. spoke as if he all wise and impartial men thought that we thought, that ministers in concluding peace would should likewise give up the conflict, if terms of feel that they had sins to expiate, while on the peace compatible with our honour and interests could be obtained. In such circumstances we did other hand the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Fox) expressed a hope, that ministers did not repent of put an end to the war, our honour entire, our constitution preserved, our best interests secured, the part they had acted, in bringing the war to a termination. I must state then to you, Sir, and and if the renewal of the war should, by any agto the House, that I do not appear before you as gression or insults on the part of France, be renan apologist for my conduct in that affair. If I dered necessary, it would not be renewed on am a delinquent, I am a hardened one; for I grounds different from those on which its disconnever reflect upon the share I had in that event tinuance had been justified. The right hon. gent. without inward satisfaction. The R. H. Gent. said, has insinuated a suspicion that the tone which ministers may have assumed in any discussions that if a person who died 14 years ago were to rise from the dead, he would scarcely know the which the govt. of France has been inconsistent world, on account of the changes it has under- with the dignity of the nation. I assert most pogone. I confess that I look back with horror on sitively, that in no one instance has the honour many of the events of the last ten years, but with and interests of the country been committed by a mixture of pride on the conduct which this ministers; and this is all that it would be proper House, and which the Country have pursued dur- for me to say upon such a subject. I am satisfied ing so eventful a crisis. Yet will the hon. gent. that the public opinion is, that the country wishes say, that even 14 years since we had no cause to for peace, but is not afraid of war; that it wishes view France with jealousy? But supposing the what is best, but is determined to be prepared for R. H. Gent.'s alarm of French power to be just, what is worst-it will submit to no base comprohow does he justify the policy of an immediate mise of its rights, and of its dignity, but will not peace? He surely then has not examined the be misled by exaggerated statements of danger, to question with sufficient attention, or he could not overlook all considerations of prudence. In this have so completely laid out of sight every con- House, and in the Country, there will be no dissideration of prudence. Several gent. have al- position to prostrate the honour of the nation; luded to the naval and military estab. as being but I am aware that there is in some individuals Upon a a disposition, originating, no doubt, in the most excessively and prematurely reduced. matter in which, by proper inquiry, accurate in- laudable feelings, to rouse the passions, to alarm the fears, to pique the pride of the country, in or formation might have been obtained, it is surprising that they should have so greatly erred. der to force us back into war, without any adeThe fact is, that with regard to our military esta- quate motive. blishment it is double what it was in the year 1784, at the same period from the conclusion of There has been a reduction in the the treaty. Mr. T. GRENVILLE, rejoiced to hear that the revenue was in so flourishing a state; but to show that the revenue was flourishing was no answer to Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that as by the war we had secured our own essential interests, it became prudent to husband our resources, after it was manifest that by war we could not repair the losses which the Continent had sustained; whil by persevering in the war we might still farthert expose those powers that might be well affected to our cause. If the relative situation of France was so materially changed as to affect these, it would be necessary to oppose her encroachments; but it did not follow that we were to resist every measure of France on the Continent, when we had no direct interest and no co-operation of other powers. He contended, that even if it were necessary to go to war to resist any new encroachment, it would be of the utmost advantage to be able to carry the country along with it, by shewing that it was a point of necessity not of choice; whereas before the peace it would have been impossible to make the public co-operate with spirt in supporting it. It was said that ministers had not shewn any attention to foreign alliances; bet was it not rather to be presumed that ministers would endeavour to form alliances to oppose a barrier to the aggrandisement of France? his R. Hon. Friend, who had shewn that the whole | Europe with indifference. Repeated encroach. state was exposed to such imminent danger. The ments had taken place, and as far as could be R. H. Gent. seemed to consider the observation, judged by the result, any remonstrance presented that he might have sins to expiate, somewhat differ- to the French govt. must have been in that stile of ently from what was intended. It was not merely "polite intimation," mentioned in the course of in regard to the conclusion of the treaty, but what the debate. The noble sec. of state says to night, had passed since, that he might have sins to expiate. "that we are to resist the unjust demands of any His Hou. Friend on the same bench (Mr. Fox) | foreign power;" but as that is confined to ourseemed to consider the makers and approvers selves, and to our naval power, there was no rea of peace upon the same footing; but there was a son to imagine that any encroachments of France material distinction. Those who approved did it, on the Continent would meet with any resistance, perhaps, in the confidence they had in the asser- He concluded with repeating, that as the tone tions of ministers with regard to the tone in which and temper of the peace had not corresponded the peace was concluded, and their promises to re- with what had been held out by ministers, and as sist all further encroachments of France. Mr. G. their promises of watching the farther encroachread from the address by Ld. Hawkesbury, on the ments of France had not been realized, they did defin. treaty last May, in which the House relies not merit the confidence of those who had ap upon his Majesty to prevent any encroachment on proved the peace, far less of those who viewed our the sources of our wealth, greatness, and naval present situation with danger. power. He asked how this had been followed up? He could not conceive it would be contended that no encroachment was here in contemplation, except such as immediately affected our naval power, because the sources of our power might be materially affected by other encroachments. Much stress, he observed, had been laid by the noble sec. of state in defending the preliminaries on the tone and temper in which it was concluded. It appeared, however, that the noble lord himself had begun to dis rust the temper of France, by recommending, by the address on the defin. treaty, an increased vigilance in regard to the measures of France. But had there been any vigilance or increased vigour in opposing the encroachments? Those then who approved the treaty, relying on the tone and temper in which it had been conchided, or on the increased vigilance to be exercised, to supply what was doubtful in the temper of Buonaparte, might consistently blame the conduct of ministers, by whom they had been deceived. Mr. G. then proceeded to the different encroachments of France since the treaty, the annexation of Piedmont, the conquest of Switzerland, the annexation of Parma, and the letter to the Ba tavian republic. He remarked that the remonstrance on the invasion of Switzerland had been attended with no effect. He stated, that according to report five or six ships had been condemned in French ports since the treaty, on grounds that would not bear investigation; particularly he Mr. WHITBREAD lamented that ministers, parmentioned the Southampton packet. He com- ticularly, had rather imprudently, he thought, plained that none of that vigilance recommended talked too much, as if there were doubts of the perin the address on the treaty had been displayed. manence of peace, by that means damping enter He asked if any attempts had been made to reuew prize, and keeping the country in suspense. He foreign alliances, the want of which was, as al- approved of the peace, and trusted it would be ledged, the cause why the war could not be car-lasting. He saw no new grounds of war. ried on, or the aggrand zement of France on the continent opposed with success. In the debates on the preliminaries and treaty, the noble sec. of state stated, that all hope of foreign alliance was at an end. Was such a declaration an encouragement to foreign princes to form alhances with us? Was our treatment of allies such as induce them to make common cause with us? He stated the instance of the King of Sardinia, and showed how our refusal to co-operate with the Emperor Alex. 1. in procuring redress for that monarch, had alienated him from our cause. He likewise censured our conduct to the P. of Orange. He took notice of the feeble tone in which the speech alluded to the state of Europe. Last year, when we were signing the peace, strong language com. paratively was spoken; but now it was merely said, that his Majesty could not see the state of Sir H. St. JOHN MILDMAY wished that the remonstrance on the invasion of Switzerland might be laid before the House, to shew the tone of ministers, who, he seemed to think, had not displayed sufficient vigour. France was in real possession of Piedmont and of Swit zerland when the treaty was concluded. He detested her conduct to Switzerland, but did not think it could justify us in breaking the treaty.By scattering doubts and fear respecting the permanence of peace, all its benefits would be blasted. As to Mr. Windham, he admired his abilities and admired his high spirit in public and private; but on this subject his powers of right reasoning, not his ingenuity, failed him. But, though he made entertaining speeches to the House, he would find it difficult to prove his consistency, in continuing a member of a cabinet which in a preceding nego tiation had offered to give up all our foreign coaquests, while he had protes.ed against any of them being given up. The address was voted nem, con. HOUSE OF COMMONS, 24TH NOVEMBER 1802. Mr. TRENCH brought up the Report of the address on the King's speech. On the question for the second reading, Mr. WILBERFORCE said, he was desirous of taking the earliest opportunity of delivering a few observations on the very important subject now before the House, the more especially, as certain sentiments of his had been alluded to by a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) on the preceding night. The sentiments which he had uttered at the time adverted to, were such as he was ready to avow. The address seemed to him to speak the language which it was proper for the House to hold, for it was not right to push matters to extremity with regard to continental affairs: there was a propriety in saying, on the part of his Majesty, that we should keep our eyes on the affairs of the continent, and be ready to take such measures as circumstances may require; and that was properly assented to in the address. If any thing gave suspicion to him in this matter, it was an allusion to the standing policy of this country, which, upon a careful and attentive perusal of the matter, and much reflection, he had formed an opinion upon which he was not likely, on a sudden, to abandon. It was this, That that House and this country had been far too forevard to engage in war and continental connexions to enter into engagements; the full extent of which we could not foresee, and many of which had been, to the highest degree, injurious to this country, having wasted much of its blood and treasure, and that without procuring, in return, the least benefit to us. Therefore, if he were to take the speech in the spirit of a special pleader, he should doubt how far the words of it, or the address upon the subject of the policy he alluded to, was right; but, in a general sense, he had no difficulty in expressing his approbation of the sentiments it contained. But it had been said, that he had uttered, on a former occasion, a sentiment purporting that in no circumstances ought this country to form any continental connexion; a sentiment which he never did atter, nor did he believe he ever should utter it, for it was going to an extreme which he never approved; it being his persuasion that almost all good policy lay between extreme points on either side, as most virtue was said to be in a medium; but he had no difficulty in saying, that, under the present circumstances of this country, it would be wise in us to pause before we renewed any continental alliance or connexion: for if the experience of the last ten years had not made us at least diffident upon these projects, it must have been most unhappily thrown away. He hoped, therefore, we should, in the language of the address, keep our eyes on what was going forward. It was indeed desirable that we should prevent France by land, as well as by sea, from extending her power; but then we were to look to expediency; and not depend on VOL. U. any speculations of statesmen. Need he say any thing on the shortsightedness of men? How had the greatest and the wisest of men been deceived in their conjectures! how had their speculations been turned into foolishness! Indeed some of the most profound politicians had overlooked things which men of the plainest, and almost meanest capacities had foreseen. And here he was led to remember and reflect on a very splendid and eloquent speech which his Noble Friend (Lord Hawkesbury) made in that House, and which could not be too much admired, as it gave earnest of those great talents which had since been exercised in the service of his country, and which had been so great an ornament as well as guide to the debates of that House. He could not help, however, reflecting on the miscarriages which may attend the schemes of all those who are accustomed to a great chain of political combinations in their thoughts and sentiments. The speech of his Noble Friend, although he most unaffectedly admired the knowledge it displayed, as well as brilliancy, on the occasion to which he alluded, naturally occurred to him, when he was considering of human foresight, especially on the events likely to arise out of the policy of states. The truth of the matter was this: politicians calculated on the continuance of the operation of certain causes, and a given number of events; when one of these events happened to be altered, the whole combination was at an end and with it, of Course, all the reasoning that was built upon such combination; nay, the whole system built upon such a combination might be reversed by one event. The whole state of a great number of things might be altered by a single event: so that after a great deal of speculation and political sagacity, we had disco. vered that all the trouble we had taken, might have been very well spared, and the country have saved vast quantities of blood and treasure. The cost might have been well employed in the improvement, instead of the destruc tion of mankind. He illustrated this by adverting to the circumstances at the peace of Utrecht, of which the danger, at one time so much apprehended, shifted at once, by a single accident, and changed the whole complexion of political affairs, as they regarded the House of Austria, Spain, and France; and which, from threatening all Europe with the horrors of war, produced a peace for thirty years, in which we were united with France for five years. Whether any policy might again unite us, he could not say, but that was not impossible. Upon these topies there was abundant matter for discussion, to shew how little hu man calculation was to be depended upon in the affairs of states, and how much was the mere effect of accident, that is to say, apon events which human foresight could not penetrate. These were considerations which ought to make us cautious in relying on the advan vantages of continental connexions, which 4 K and upon a subject as interesting as ever was contemplated by any state; and on the par of some of the confederates, the ties of con sanguinity were added to those of general po licy; for Austria had family motives in the confederacy. Russia, Prussia, Spain, Sardinia, and indeed every power in Europe had at some time or other belonged to this great confeces racy. Did not every one of these powers get out of the confederacy as soon, or, as it wer steal of out it? nor could it be otherwise, while they were acting on views so differe, that some of them were more afraid of earn other than they were of the enemy they had united to oppose. In 1797, was not the court of Vienna induced to quit us? How did that court behave towards us on that occasion Did it discover any extraordinary fidelity to wards this country? Did they give us a potte intimation upon that occasion of what they were about to do? No such thing. W could not know for many months, what the treaty was between it and France. It w lodged in the breast of the Austrian cabinets but when it came out, there was no wonder it was so long concealed, for it disclos the utmost perfidy with regard to us. with regard to the German indemnities, regard was paid to any engagements with 5From all this continental policy of faithlessne we had only to determine to embark no furthe than we can see our way. He had heard: said, that among the alterations which 14 French had introduced, that of changing the meaning of words was one; so that now, N may be made to mean Yes, and Yes No. that when the French say,they will guaranty the integrity of the Turkish empire for all tirs they mean, they will give away part to might depend on a combination of numerous events. It had been said of him, that he had uttered a sentiment which had about it perhaps some unseasonable merriment, nor was it totally without its sober sadness. The phrase that conveyed the sentiment he alluded to was this: "That the people of this country are too honest to "have much to do with continental connexions." His Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning), who had animadverted on that expression, ought to have made some allowance for his situation. He had occasion to go home to his constituents, and to address them on the subject of their pressure, for such must be the effect of every war to such a class as his constituents, and particularly in the last war. He therefore ought to have some indulgence in speaking as the representative of such a class of persons as his constituents avere. It was not unreasonable to say that we wanted to recruit our strength, which was much wasted both in blood and treasure; and therefore, if he made use of an odd expression, it was not matter of great blame. But the truth of the matter was this: he had no apology to make for the expression which had been so quoted and animadverted upon, and he was so far from making any apology for the assertion, that he was now about to repeat and affirm it; and it was a sentence to which he called the attention of the House, and particularly that of his Majesty's Ministers. He said again, that the people of this country are too honest to have much to do with continental connexions. He said this because we are always faithful to our engagements, THEY almost always faithless to us; at least always so when it appears to them to suit their interests; for it was part of the general system of the policy of the continent to pay no attention to political engagements when it is in the least degree con-power they please, upon having an equivale venient to neglect them. Of the truth of this there were many instances; a striking one was that of the Pragmatic Sanction, in which, in the course of a few years, every power engaged in it deserted its engagement, England alone excepted. As to the last three we had had with France, to use the strong language of another person, the ink which recorded these engagements was hardly dry when they meditated a breach of them. In a word, the principle on the continent seemed to be, that of paying no attention to political engagements for a moment longer than an observance of - them was convenient. Seeing this, and feeling the effect of it, he would ask, whether it was too much to say, that the people of England-nor was it unlikely that the parties shou ought to be cautious in the engagements which they enter into? We certainly ought to be cautious in these things, for we must keep our engagements whether they be convenient or not, whatever others may do with theirs. He entreated the House to consider what was likely to be the result of a confederacy with any of the powers which we had already been engaged with. We had been engaged in as powerful a confederacy as ever was formed, and that they will keep the remainder the upon it. What then should we do? Tas last 14 years of continental affairs in particular. of abuses, to the improvement of the education of He then proceeded to take a view of the policy youth, as the best way to improve morals, to which it was the real interest of this country the redress of all species of grievances, as the to pursue, and differed totally from the senti- best way to continue the attachment of the ments which had been expressed by Mr. Wind- whole people to that constitution and state of ham upon that subject. The Right Hon. things, that rendered us at once the admiration Gentleman had declared that, upon a full view of the whole world, and marked us out as a of our situation, war appeared to him to be people cujoying the greatest blessing it had yet the better course of the two. Now he would pleased Providence to bestow on mankind-a ask what we could expect from war?-In the Government, under which liberty was enjoyed, last war we had taken all that was takeable, if and property protected, and all the comforts he might be allowed the expression. And of human life better secured, than any other what could we do but take again what we had age or country had yet felt. With all these agreed to give up? And what should we be blessings, and with all this power to preserve the better if another peace was agreed to within them and sense to enjoy them, he could not help 50 miles of Vienna, or at the capital? What wishing that we might try the advantages of could we get by prolonging the war? What peace, and avail ourselves of them, and shun could we hope more than to be put into the all indefinite continental connexions; above situation in which we were at the conclusion of all, to enter into no engagements hastily or the peace? Were the people of this country precipitately, on the ground of any supposed so ready to burst with prosperity as to be eager readiness in the public for hostility, on account for war? Or did it appear, on a calm view of of some recent instances of flagrant injustice. our situation, that a war was necessary for us He wished rather to obtain the sentiments of the at this moment? He apprehended not, and middle class of society, who, generally speaking, he could not help thinking, that were it not for were the best informed, and who had and who some immovable prejudice of Mr. Windham, a felt an immediate and direct identity of interest man of his enlarged understanding could not see with the public at large-a class of men whose political events and affairs in the light he did. opinion, although never neglected in this Before we were engaged again in war, we country, had not perhaps all the aveight it deshould look at our revenue, and see that it be served." He concluded with observing, that if improved; we should look the whole of our this course was taken by Government, we situation in the face-look at and provide should have nothing to fear from the enormous against all ourdangers; attend to the dearest in- size of the French republic. What if they were terest of our country; but we should consider 50 millions of men-did that con titute the wherein that interest consists. Let us remem- strength of the Chief Consul of France? Rather ber, that, dear as are army and navy, our re-his weakness, if left to themselves; for multivenue, our trade, and our commerce, and all tudes of them must hate the system by which our resources, that yet above all our army, they are become subject to their present yoke. above all our navy-that was to say, above all-Time, therefore, avould remove all apprehenour soldiers--ay, and above all our sailors too -above all our commerce, and above all our wealth, and the preparation which that wealth enabled us to make, there was one more important than all the rest to a free country, and that was the disposition of the people, that was, that its government should possess the hearts of the people; but he begged leave to warn Ministers against the possible event of creating a clamour for war, by exciting the resentment of the people against some de testable acts of tyranny in another power, and of taking advantage of it, to involve the country in war; the effects of which, when the people began to reflect, would be dismal. Be entreated that they would, as far as possible, | inform the people of their situation; give a right feeling of their danger; observing, that if they hurried on the people to war, without this caution, they would deserve the severest censure, and, he had almost said, the execration of their countrymen. He thought that Ministers acted on the true policy of this country, by endeavouring to restore to it the blessings of peace. He hoped they would turn their thoughts to all species of internal improvements, to the economy, to reformation 1 sion in this respect. It was natural to expect, that if this unwieldy mass was left to itself, it would, in time, change its condition—it could not be otherwise; for moral causes were certain of their effects, whereas the effect of human policy was always uncertain. The way to produce the dissolution of this mighty power, was to leave it to its own course; the way to. unite it, was to attack it by hostile force. Gen. GASCOYNE-He apprehended there might be some mistake in the representation given of our common prosperity. That description did not apply to the most important branch of all, he meant the West India islands. Since the conclusion of peace, a pressure had, fallen with great severity on the carrying trade particularly, which diminished it at this time one third of its former value. Mr. ELIOT said, he should not consume the. time of the House by an apology for presuming to ask its indulgence. He had been so little in, the habit of public discussion, and felt so unfeigned, and, he was conscious, too well founded, a reluctance, to engage in it, that he trusted the House would do him the justice to |