This he conceived to be a most important con- sures, if guilty they are, lay as much on his sideration with respect to our Indian empire. shoulders as on those of any member of the But he had no hesitation to say, that Ministers late Administration; and he would agree that hemselves did not know what system they their successors may well be deemed weak and were acting upon, or what line of conduct it void of energy, did they hesitate a moment, would be preferable to pursue. Of this, their in case of necessity, to tread in the steps of Conduct respecting Malta and the Cape fur. their predecessors in that particular, and temished striking instances; their orders and porarily to supersede the liberty of the councounter-orders respecting the retention or sur-try, in order permanently to secure it; and render of these settlements, and their conduct should they hesitate upon such salutary and with respect to the conquered colonies in the saving measures, he would no longer form a West Indies. He however begged it to be un- part of that Administration; but the reason derstood, that he disclaimed the idea of wish they were not resorted to was, simply because ng to urge Ministers to rush into a war. The they were not necessary. He would not follow ine of policy he endeavoured to recommend, the Noble Lords in those points which were irhat of firmness and vigour, was the surest relevant to the subject in discussion, nor parmeans of asserting the honour of the country, ticularly the last Noble Speaker, through the and preserving the blessings of peace: but whole conduct of the late Ministry. With rewhen he considered the weak, impolitic, and gard to them, however, he was aware, that no wavering conduct of Ministers, he could en- set of men could more fully maintain the hdertain little hopes in these points of view. nour and preserve the happiness of the country On the contrary, had they acted on the truly in a greater degree than they did; and he supwise and energetic system laid down by their ported them through the whole of their ad predecessors, and followed it up with vigour ministration with all his heart and soul. He and effect, he would have supported them with would put it to the heart and feelings of the much more spirit and alacrity than he now felt Noble Earl who took the lead in this debate, necessary to oppose them. The resources if the tendency of his arguments did not of the nation he was well convinced were per- amount to this-that they ought to refuse fectly adequate to the situation in which it their assent to the bill of supply before them; was unfortunately placed by the conduct of not because the establishments to be provided Ministers—but then they must be directed by for by it were unnecessary or excessive-not be other hands, and administered by men of su- cause the situation of the country did not obvi perior talents, spirit, and abilities, in order to ously require them--but because those in whose bring them fully into action; to extricate her hands their application was trusted, could from her present difficulties, and to render her not make a wise use of them? He had had the once more great and glorious. A gun may in honour of fighting side by side with that great every respect be capable of performing ser- Minister so often alluded to in recent debates; vice, but it must be directed by skilful hands and he would ask, would that great person reto render it efficacious. A boat or ship may fuse to assent to such a bill as the present, at be in perfect order, but an able steersman a moment when the circumstances of France and expert mariners were necessary to render rendered it necessary that the country should t of service. Upon the whole, and under all be, not certainly with a drawn sword, but in the circumstances of the case, he felt it his a state of readiness to recur vigorously to deduty at present to object to their Lordships fensive measures, should the conduct of the proceeding to the order of the day. former render it necessary? Such would not be the conduct of that great man. And, with The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the respect to the insinuations of charges against question regularly before their Lordships was, his Majesty's present Ministers, the language whether they would read the order for going of the person he alluded to on former occa nto a Committee to consider of a bill of sup- sions was emphatically, that those who urged ply, which not only went to affect the military addresses for the removal of Ministers, should Establishment, but even the civil existence of boldly state the specific causes upon which the the country; it was a bill, which in that House proceeding should be founded." Were con had been regularly voted without opposition, trary principles acted upon, the circulation, from year to year, and which they would bear the vital blood of the county would be stopin mind, not only regarded the naval and mili. ped. If Ministers were to be removed, let it ary, but the civil establishments of the coun- be on distinct and express grounds; and here ty. In the course of what had fallen from the his Lordship having occasion to recur to the Noble Earl who spoke last, some observations conduct and principles of the great Minister had been made which he felt himself imperi- before alluded to, spoke of his character in ously called upon to answer. They regarded strains of the warmest eulogium, as one whom hat part of the conduct of the late Administra- the bounty of Providence, with a reverence tion, which related to the measures adopted by to his transcendent talents and virtue, caused them, against those who were endeavouring, not his equal to be born in the course of cen by means of sedition and treason, to destroy turies. He knew that great and virtuous man the government, and to subvert the constitu- to be grossly abused and libelled, while the ob ion of the country. The guilt of those mea-ject of his measures was alone the preservation of genuine freedom:-to that end, he well knew, the thoughts of that person were anxiously directed. Never yet did any man more richly deserve the applause of the virtuous and the good! Recurring then to the subjects in discussion, the Noble and Learned Lord observed, that, in arguing the question, those in opposition uniformly occupied the "vantage ground" they had referred to the consideration of alliances, and their effects, without seeming to consider how far that Administratien, of which those Noble Lords so worthily formed a part, was implicated in those measures; how many were signed by the late Noble Secretary of State, and were necessarily dissolved even during his continuance in office! The present Ministers had been repeatedly censured for reducing the forces of the country; but it was not considered that such reduction was necessary, and often one of the most desirable effects of peace. It was unnecessary now to enter into a vindication of that important measure; he would only fervently pray to God that it may not, as the Noble Lords had augured (his hopes and convictions were otherwise) turn out prejudicial to the country; but, at any rate, the present vote was not to be decided by that measure. With respect to the Noble Earl's first objection, as to the manner in which the present supply was proposed, it was then unnecessary for him to answer it. In regard to his second point, the details of the establishments, it was some satisfactio to him, that the Noble Earl did not object to them on the score of extent, He did not profess himself to be adequately conversant in those subjects, but he could not refrain from observing again, that the Noble Lords took the "vantage ground," in not considering these establishments with a reference to the naval and military faculties of France; and in this point of view he doubted not. they would be found well apportioned, and conmensurate to the circumstances and necessities of this country. In arguing these points, his Lordship displayed much ability and information; and concluded with a reservation, that it could not fairly be said, that the day may not arrive in which these forces may be consistently and safely reduced. But were the question to be decided on the grounds urged by the Noble Earl, it were impossible the funds and forces of the country could be turned to a wise or salutary use. If such were the Noble Earl's real sentiments, he would put it to his justice, whether his motion should be directed not against the bill of supply, but for the removal of Ministers? Upon such principles he had always acted with the great inan before alluded to, with the Noble Lords themselves, and with the ancestor of a Noble Lord on the bench with them. (We believe the Noble and Learned Lord alluded to Lord Kenyon, who was present.) With respect to the peace, and the important circumstances connected with it, he felt like an Englishman all over; there were many points connected with that, but more especially with the present subject, which he should think himse very unworthy of the situation he had the honour to hold, if he were weak enough t enter into a discussion of at present. He spoke his sentiments on this head, with t teelings of a man who humbly hoped thể those who went before should not have to R proach them with such a dereliction of duty, they would act upon the same great and leading principles, and they would suive to pr serve the peace, and endeavour to save the country. EARL SPENCER observed, that the N Lord had misapprehended the object of k argument when he supposed it was to suspen the progress of the bill until the present Ai ministration was removed; if he should b said any thing to that effect, it was not his tention to have said it. The EARL of CARLISLE observed, the what had been so misconceived was not the object of Lords on his side of the question their wish was only that the House should pause until Ministers would condescend to tread in the steps of their ancestors upon sm lar occasions, and conform to the established practice of Parliament. In every former instance they required information, and adeque explanation as to the reasons and causes ways accompanied the requisition. As they stood, they were abandoned entirely to co jecture; and they might be strongly ind to think that some material change had tak place, when they recollected what was pass about the close of last session, as an adequ establishment, and compared it with what w demanded at present. The Noble Earl th adverted to the recent occurrences on the ense tinent, the acquisitions to the territories France, and the affairs of Switzerland, ♬ specting which Ministers left the House 1 complete ignorance. He repelled the ide that the object of the present onduct of t Lords who acted with him was a change Ministers: neither was it a part of their ver to urge them to a war; such insinuations we unfounded; their real objects were, the be nour and security of the country. In the pr sent instance he insisted it would be r to afford time to Ministers to follow the e ample of their ancestors upon similar ect. sions. The EARL of DARNLEY expressed his r prehensions in strong language at the incre ing power of France, which, conjoined » Russia, he was of opinion, could give lass! the whole world, Great Britain exceptedHe would support Ministers as long as they held the national honour, and provided for security. At the same time, he could s withhold his tribute of applause to the ch racter of the great Minister so often alluded to of late. His abilities, integrity, and, above all, his firmness, spirit, and courage, were beyond any thing he could express. He then recurred to the situation of France, and the character of the person at the head of its government, whose ambition he considered as far from being satiated. One great object of his ambition seemed, he conceived, to be the subjugation of this country. He longed to break open the doors of the Bank of England with his legion of honour, and to plant the republi. can standard on the Tower of London. He would freely speak his sentiments independent of ministerial considerations-he deemed large establishments requisite in the present state of the country, and as such approved of the bill before the House. assenting to the supplies already voted by the House of Commons. His Lordship then slightly adverted to some occurrences which took place about the period of the resignation of the late Ministers, and argued therefrom in favour of his general conclusions. He was duly convinced of the delicate situations in which Ministers were often placed-situations which sometimes rendered it as necessary to withhold explanation, as it may be proper to give it in others. After adverting to some points connected with the general subject of discussion, in some degree of detail, he drew inferences therefrom, and adduced additional arguments in favour of the immediate progress of the bill. LORD CARYSFORT objected that there had not been sufficient information laid before the House, to authorize them to vote for the supply demanded, until more satisfactory statements were made on the part of his Majesty's Ministers. His Lordship discussed at some length the topics which have been already repeatedly urged respecting the relative situ ation of the country, and observed that he could not help doubting how far his Majesty's Ministers were entitled to confidence, when he considered the dangers to which the country had been exposed during their administration. was not exactly what was wished, he was cer. tain that it met with the concurrence and approbation of nine tenths of the people of this country-of all, in short, who were not led away by motives of private interest to wish for a continuance of the war. LORD HOBART affirmed, that the honour of the country had not been sullied by the conduct of his Majesty's present Ministers: not one of them would continue in office, were they necessitated to submit to any act which tended to sully the national honour. With respect to the subject in discussion, he must express his surprise at the perseverence of Lords in opposition, after the very candid and satisfactory explanation given by his Noble and Learned Friend on the woofsack, in the last debate. He contended, that the causes for the establishments thus called for were of sufficient public notoriety for Parliament to The DUKE of NORFOLKaid, that his Maproceed upon. Nor was that all; he could asjesty's Ministers made a peace, which, if it effectually contend, that the measures now under discussion were duly and adequately adverted to in the speech from the Throne. In illustration of which position, his Lordship read several striking extracts; and it was to enable his Majesty to give effect, in case of necessity, to the language so delivered, that the augmentation in question was deemed ne- LORD GRENVILLE said, that there never cessary, and for which, he must insist, the had been a greater perversion of the line of Royal communication had laid an adequate argument adopted by his Noble Friends, than foundation. The charge of the Noble Lords, the statement which had been unintentionally, therefore, that the whole proceeding was no doubt, made by his Noble and Learned rested on the ground of public notoriety, was Friend (the Lord Chancellor). It was never unfounded. Upon those principles, it would the intention of himself, or of his Noble be necessary that his Majesty's Speech should Friends, to oppose the supplies, but it was be accompanied by a geographical description merely a question as to time. The opposition of France and its territorial acquisitions, and was merely to the order of the day being now also by a schedule of her military establish- read, in the hope that some communication ments. When the Noble Lords admitted they might in the mean time be made from his Madid not object to the extent of the establish-jesty, with respect to the motives upon which ments, upon what solid or substantial grounds they were called upon to vote the supplies, then could they advance? The establish- His Majesty's Ministers had not thought proments existing in France were matter for seri- per to advise his Majesty to make any specific ous consideration in the discussion of the sub-communication as to the particular circum ject before them, and for the information of the House. His Lordship read some extracts from a recent publication (we could not collect the title), wherein the the land forces, &c. of France were specified; their power, by one statement therein, was estimated at 495,000 men; and he argued, that this, joined to the other considerations advanced in the Course of the debate, were ample grounds for stances of the country; all the information they had upon the subject was ambiguous and unsatisfactory. He had taken some pains to search the Journals of the House for a century back, and he had found it had been invariably the practice, with the exception perhaps of a few instances, which would make little in favour of his Majesty's Ministers, that some specific grounds had been stated to Parlia tending very minutely to the political situation of the country: he could only in this way ac count for the opinion delivered by his Noble and Learned Friend, which he considered as very fatal to the country, that we must have large establishments, in order to be upon our guard against the designs of France; and that we must trust to time for an amelioration of our situation. He well knew, that much was to be allowed to events; but he could not help observing, there was not much probability it ! present that the power and predominance of France would decrease; and when it was stated that the establishments now required were a great as the faculties of the country cou bear, it was informing France of the extent f our resources, of which she might with fachy take advantage. He wished it to be thoroughly understood, that he had no desire for war; be only wished for a firm and vigorous conést on the part of his Majesty's Ministers. ment as to the particular line of conduct which they were called upon to pursue. After the treaty of Lisbon, the peace of Utrecht, the treaty of Paris, and other events of a similar nature, some information was imparted, which served as a clue to guide the Legislature with respect to the relative situation of the country. In the memorable speech of George the First, immediately after the accession of the House of Hanover, it was stated, that the peace was insecure, and that it was necessary to cement continental alliances. In the present case, however, all the information given was vague and unsatisfactory. He did not wish hastily to oppose his Majesty's Ministers, but he could not help thinking that the return of the Right Hon. Gentleman to power, who had so ably presided over the late Administration, was wanted, and that those who opposed his return were guilty of a deep injustice towards their country. Large sup plies were called for, but what was the difference in the situation of the country? The LORD PELHAM said, that as to what the hostility of France towards this country was Noble Lord (Lord Grenville) had advanced re the same, whilst her power was increasing; specting Cochin, that Noble Lord might be in and if that was the case, why should it have possession of some information upon the subbeen stated, as it had been at one time since ject, but certainly his Majesty's Ministers had the peace, that an establishment of 30,000 sea- received no intelligence of its surrender. E men would be sufficient, when at the present disclaimed the opinion advanced by the Nik moment a larger establishment was called for? | Lord, as that of his Majesty's Ministers, that The military and naval establishments now they intended to trust merely to time, as it wa called for, were, it was stated, as great as the certainly their intention to take advantage of em faculties of the country were enabled to pro- circumstance upon the continent, which could ess vide for; but it should be recollected, that tribute to the security of this country. The Nobe proposing these establishments was like erect- Lord had alluded to a supposed misrepresentaing a dam, which was not to exceed a certain tion of the sentiments of the Noble Lord's height, against a torrent which was continually friends in the course of the night, as if it had increasing; the dam might be able to stem the been stated that they wished to refuse the sup stream to-day, but to-morrow the torrent plies; he confessed he could not see much di, would increase, and its impetuosity receive an ference between stopping and arresting the additional force. We were called upon, it supplies. It had been observed by the Nob was stated, to execute the treaty of Amiens, Lord, alluding to a statement made in another whilst France had acted in defiance of it: place, that a much smaller peace establishment surely, however, it was necessary to pause be- had been originally mentioned, than that which fore we delivered up the Cape and Cochin, wąs now called for; but it would be recollect which were the keys of the East Indies; and ed that the statement alluded to only implied, Malta, which was the key of the Mediterra- that the number of seamen wanted would not nean. The Cape and Cochin had, it seemed, be less than 30,000, not that they would not been already surrendered. As to Malta, in-exceed that number. The Noble Lord ha formation was still wanted, whether it was retained as a matter of policy with respect to the general relations of this country, or whether only until certain stipulations, agreed upon in the treaty of Amiens, were fulfilled; stipulations which, he contended, ought never to have been entered into. He could not conceive, however, that Malta ought to be the subject of a separate and distinct question; it ought only to be comprised in the general question respecting the relations between this Country and France. He had the highest repect for his Noble and Learned Friend (the Lord Chancellor), but he was fully aware, that the numerous avocations of his Noble and Learned Friend, precluded him from at expressed much friendship for his Majesty's Ministers; but certainly whatever might be the expressions of the Noble Lord and his friends, the effect of their opinions went to the removal of those Ministers; and if the Noble Lord and his friends really held those opinions which they had advanced, it was certainly ther constitutional duty to endeavour, according to the forms of Parliament, to procure the re moval of those Ministers, a step which be should certainly take if the Noble Lord and his friends were in office; and he held the same opinion of them which they seemed to entertain of himself and his Noble and Hon, Colleagues. With respect to the call made by the Noble Lord for the return of a Right Hoa, Gentleman into office, he should only say, that neither himself nor his colleagues opposed any obstacle to that return. HOUSE OF COMMONS, 29TH DECEMBER 1802. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose; and moved that the House do now adjourn until the 3d day of February next; upon which Mr. ELIOT said, that he could not help expressing his decided opposition to the motion just now made by the Right Hon. Gentleman. It was universally known and acknowledged, that the country was at this moment placed in a state of unparalleled danger, in a state such as required the most anxious caution, the most unremitting vigilance. Indeed, after the various deliberations that had already taken place upon this serious and important subject, how could he help being filled with surprise on observing that a motion should be made for the House now to adjourn for five weeks, without Ministers having condescended to afford any thing like parliamentary information respecting the present perilous posture of public affairs? Is there any man now so sceptical about the views which France is pursuing, as to doubt thas she is actuated by a most dangerous spirit of ambition and aggrandizement? or can any man who observes that spirit, observe it without painfully feeling the imminence of the perils to which our present situation is exposed? When we observe the workings of that spirit, what do we behold? Do we not see, that, instead of endeavouring to avail herself of the advantages of peace, France is comporting herself as if under the uncertainty of an armistice? Instead of reducing, is she not enlarging, the scale of her establishments? Is she not increasing her forces both by sea and land? Is she not replenishing her arsenals, and multiplying every possible mean of aggression? and, with all these symptoms of preparation before us, is the House to separate and retire without obtaining the least information respecting matters of such weighty im portance? It is known that we are still in possession of Malta; but whether we still retain the Cape of Good Hope or not, is doubt ful. It does not appear that Alexandria has yet been evacuated; neither is it explained why so long a delay has occurred in evacuating it. Whether we are to retain or surrender these possessions, or when the different conditions of the treaty of Amiens will be fulfilled, are points respecting which the House was left Completely in the dark. There were also other reports of an alarming nature abroad: Cochin said to be delivered up to France; the same was likely to be the fate of the Floridas. All these things are said to be going on; yet at the same time it appears we are to be dismissed without obtaining the least information respecting such momentous interests, without being able to say to our constituents whether there was any foundation for such rumours or not.' The House is likewise left uninformed whether any attempts have been made at establishing any commercial intercourse with France, or with the allies of France; or what may be the consequence of not having revived the former existing treaties. Upon all these topics, so closely connected with the vital interests of the country, no light whatever was afforded, and in that state of ignorance were Members sent back to their constituents, wholly unable to satisfy them for what purposes such large establishments have been voted; wholly unable to tell them what they may have to hope, or what to fear. France, meanwhile, continued to infringe on the rights of almost every surrounding nation, without its being determined whether the conditions of the peace were fulfilled, or when they would be fulfilled. Under such a doubtful aspect of affairs, it could not be proposed to adjourn the House, unless Ministers were prepared to give some satisfactory information respecting the state of the country, which state was surely more perilous than at any other period when such an adjournment was ever before moved. Such a motion he, for one, could not agree to; for he was satisfied that it must tend materially to affect the interests of the country, and let down the dignity of Parliament. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER began by observing, that the Hon. Gentleman who spoke last, seemed to contend that on all hands it was admitted that the country was in a state of unexampled danger. He must beg leave to say, that he for one could not accede to such an admission; and he might, perhaps, with equal confidence assert, that if the opinion of the majority of the House, and of the people, were taken upon this question, it would be found that they were no parties to such an admission. He must also beg leave to remind the House, that he never had underrated or disguised the danger that might be apprehended from the spirit of aggrandizement which seemed to actuate the French government; on the contrary, it was always his wish that the most unwearied vigilance should be kept up; that the utmost caution should be observed; but, at the same time, he could not help being struck with those gloomy insinuations in which the Gentlemen opposite to him were so prone to indulge (without the least bad intention, most undoubtedly, on their part), but which, however, must have a strange effect in the eyes of Europe, by continually holding out this country as placed in a situa tion of unexampled danger. If any such danger existed, Parliament had already wisely provided the means of meeting and averting it; and that precaution of their wisdom in pre |